Merged: Pending clearance??
 

Been hearing the phrase coming from the pilots of one of our regionals quite frequently, as in "Centre, Rover797, departed YXXX at 30, tracking 360, climbing flight level 250 pending clearance." Is this a case of one pilot hearing some non-standard phraseology and thinking "oh, that sounded cool, I might use it too"?, or is it a direction from the company? And what is the rationale behind it? To an ATC, it's just two superfluous words....

More than likely!:rolleyes:

I love it when other people start a thread about one of my pet hates!:ok:

Yes, Hempy. It's another HWF (High Wank Factor) non-standard phraseology that the perpetrators think sound good :}. ATC know you want a clearance and know you'll remain OCTA awaiting, sorry, pending your clearance, so why bother verbalising it?

Kind of like the "Proposed Descent" of the 80's :yuk:, or the "Maintains" (Ansett plural) of the 90's.:ugh:

I use them on the odd occasion.

I call it an anticipative call...

eg. Mel Centre, VH-XXX is where-ever, request airways clearance direct Essendon, preferably 7,500ft.

VH-XXX you are now at 25 miles, begin descent. Roger, Centre, VH-XXX will begin descent at 10 miles.

It's a little like my intersexual departures.

Maintains is also valid. It's when you speak on behalf of you and your aircraft. All stations Avalon, VH-XXX, we are 5 miles out (even if you are single pilot), or VH-XXX turnS left base for 36.

You guyz have gotta do that engrish test some time soon.

No it's not, cause that's not what it says in the AIP...:cool:

Does the Engrish test include readin?;)

"Pending Clearance" is also a very big pet hate of mine too. Why can't people just use STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY!!

Another one that ****s me, an aircraft is out in woop woop and the nearest CTA is at FL185 above them, and they come out with "Centre, ABC, request climb one zero thousand", :hmm::hmm:. Why are you requesting climb when you're OCTA? :mad:

morno

Pretty similar to "go ahead" as in neither are required or in the AIP.

I don't know Kelly. If ATC or another aircraft calls you with a request, What is one supposed to say?

Its being picky.....but here goes KRUSTY.

BNE CEN: VH-KRUSTY Brisbane Centre

VH KRUSTY: Brisbane Centre, VH-KRUSTY

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH


but thats just being picky. The odd extra word is probably OK so long as it does not end up like the USA where its a dangerous rabble of sland and misinformed controllers and pilots.

J:ok:

Krusty

I suppose it would go like this:

"Krusty 34, Brisbane Center?"

"Krusty 34"

"Krusty 34, confirm maintaining 7000. Radar shows you 7400" :ugh:

I was going to start exactly this thread, Hempy, after bashing around QLD last week and hearing it consistently from that particular airline.

The other one was "All stations YXXX, Wank Air 420 Delta, the Dash 8..." :hmm:

I screw up on the RT often but I haven't written my own procedures just to sound cool.

Next thing we'll be hearing lines from the Dooks 'f Hazzid... cos it sounds cool :suspect:

The problem is, supposedly, that REX are often doing it.
Could any REX jockey here please confirm that there is no company directive to say "pending clearance".

It's starting to creep in to where it don't belong, and we (in our game) wanna squash it. It's only "pending clearance" we're interested in thanks.

Stick to standard phrases as per AIP, at this time. (Oh! there's another one!!!!)

at this time
at this time
aaaaagh!
now is the time to buy a watch and stop hoping someone else will tell you the time

I agree wholeheartedly, superfluous, non-standard babble has no place in aviation.

"Pending clearance" must take a whole second to say.

On the other hand, the following;

Smartstate 542: Centre, SS542 departed blah blah, climbing FL250
ATC: SS542 remain OCTA
Smartstate 542: Remain OCTA
..........takes another 5 to 8 secs.

If the offending airline has been involved in the above multi-transmission exchange on several occasions, then the offending pilot may merely be attempting to communicate his SA/need for a clearance to the ATCO.

I've heard this on plenty of occasions and can understand how some have slipped it into their RT.

There was a thread on this recently. At the end of the day does it really matter as long as we are getting our message across???

And no, I rarely use the "pending" bit unless the departure port is in close proximity to the CTA LL.

Whilst we're on the subject of superfluous words, how about "ABC request
FL350 if available".

Well mate, if it ain't available, you're not gettin' it!

And the absolute worst of them all:

'Centre ABC taxies WYY for MB RWY.. 2pob Request IFR traffic and code'

When you use standard phraseology as per AIP you'll get a traffic statement and code BOXHEAD :ugh:

That sounds like an earnest question, kooka, so I'll try not to use my flamethrower in reply ;)

The problem with "professional" pilots and non-standard phraseology is that it is a product of a lack of discipline.

Reading an AIP to get the right calls rolling off the tongue, even unfamiliar ones, is a pretty simple task. Its all in there, in black and white.

Sure, we all blurt out a dumb call every now and then.

But there is a difference between a skilled and disciplined pilot who occasionally fumbles when distracted, and the lazy b-gger that never really bothered to keep up with the requirements.

Like any other laziness, it is not just confined to one area. Show me a pilot that farts around with a basic position report, and I'll show you a pilot that probably doesnt know separation standards at "non-towered" aerodromes, doesn't use manufacturer or company standard operating procedures and techniques, etc.

And thats not just my opinion. It is what Rob Helmreich found in his LOSA project - "teams that violate procedures or make other non-consequential errors are more than 1.4 times more likely to commit other types of offences."

Helmreich RL. Culture and error. In: Safety in aviation: the management commitment: proceedings of a conference. London: Royal Aeronautical Society.

So sloppy radio work = lack of required discipline = unprofessional aviator.

And it is so simple to fix. Read the AIP and apply some discipline. Then observe improvements in other areas of your operation as discipline spills over and cleans up your act in general!

Thanks Bendo. But I was alluding to a phrase frome ATC something along the lines of, "Krusty 34 Brisbane Centre request?" "Go ahead" seems a natural response to it when asked in that manner. I do however see your point.

As for "Pending clearance", makes me cringe everytime I hear it. I can say there is definitely no directive from the company to use it. In fact if anyone I fly with try it, (and there are 1 or 2) I ask them where in the Jeps it can be found. They usually get the message!

I was refering to aircraft told to expect something from the next frequency telling that next frequency to "Go ahead".

...the other one is the "taxiis", "departs", "lines up"

The idea is that You are reporting what YOU are doing.

It's not a fukcing running commentary and we aren't on the edge of our seats.

Oh... and it's not in AIP/JEPP like that either.

Aero Club pilots at my local aerodrome have taken to the ol' double-click as a response. Very handy to make a call as you turn inbound on the NDB approach and simply get "click click" as a reply.

ITCZ's point about discipline is an excellent one and well made. :D

So, out of curiosity, how many of you call "finalS"? There is only one final approach for any particular runway.... And just to be as picky... I hear the big red rat (supposedly the professionals) often call "clear of all runways" even though there is only one runway.... :D

harden up cry babies.

Even with only one strip, isn't there at least 2 runway(s) on which to arrive/depart, or be 'clear of'...:eek:

You guys crack me up sometimes, I'm no genius but at least I can count to two! ;)

Excellent post.

Ah! "Pending Clearance" I didnt realise it had become so popular :) wow! I'm famous. I threw this in because I was sick of ATC coming back and telling me to remain outside controlled airspace, when departing blackstump in the middle of the desert.

XEPTU,

We are having it belted into us to say" Remain clear of class X airspace blah blah" regardless of whether you say pending clearance or not.

For those that like to ask for traffic and a code, don't be surprised if you get "squawk 2000":ugh:

I hope none of you guys say Good morning, Good afternoon or G'Day when you call ATC then. Get a life guys.

yeah fully understand mate, I just try to streamline things to minimise time on the trigger. I hate the changing to CTAF calls in multicom aircraft too. why would one choose at 15 miles from the aerodrome to say its ok you dont need to tell me about IFR traffic now. If I hear you, great, thanks muchly, if I dont, you tried thanks anyway.

The "request F350 if available" thing is akin to begging in non RVSM approved aircraft, even though we're fitted with all the gear, no-ones got around to ticking the request approval box. It's a psychological thing, we can't help it :)

Flying git,
 

If you are a fair-dinkum student you should get a new instructor or preferably, change schools.

The safety record of aviation is founded on self discipline by all involved. No, the radio stuff discussed here is not going to kill someone but as others (above) have said, there is a correlation between a lack of discipline and safety incidents.

Head-on collisions are pretty rare and everyone knows to keep to the left. Should we get rid of the white lines on freeways? ...no, because - as you said -

When you get older and you're raising toddlers (or teenagers) you will understand the importance of setting a standard or a boundary and enforcing it.

When you are a chief pilot you will understand that in many ways, the distinction between toddlers (or teenagers) and pilots is often very, very slim. :ugh:



..... :}

Yeah right.

Maybe if you changed schools you'd see the difference and perhaps, in time, understand my point.

As for the rest of your post, refer comment above re: difference between pilots and toddlers :rolleyes:

You're right. But look at it the other way. There are an awful lot of people out there that never get it right.

The plethora of readbacks that miss the required because they're so full of crap that's not required.

• Why read back "copied no IFR traffic" for fcuks sake!!!!!
• Why ask for a code on departure? It's not required until they give it to you.
• "If available"??????
• "ABC on climb to FL180 pending clearance to FLxxx".
• "DEF left FLyyy". Left it for what? On descent, climb? Where to?

I believe that MOST of my radio calls a within the ball park of AIP requirements, however I never say FIFE, and rarely say NIN-ER. Does that, therefore, make me a:

:confused::confused::confused:

The Baffler :ok:

baffler:

YES :}

I got bolloxed by my first CP in my first job after my first Bungles when my call joining the Battle of Britain (ie: the circuit) was something like...

"aaaaaah um XYZ joining Crosswind and ummm.... ahhh I'll go after you, Paul and ummmm, ahhh, can I slip in front of you Geoff?

Such sterling airmanship was displayed for not only all my colleagues (who also hear the reaming, I think) but for the blue team as well :ugh:

The following 2 years of my career (in hindsight) proved the point about general standards, discipline, and outcomes.

When I started getting my **** together, a lot of other things fell into line too. :ok:

Great thread....
 

RT procedures are not studied as such from beginning of training, I believe. Student pilots hear what their bullet-proof instructor says, and then blindly repeats it. No study of the AIP / Jepps.....

Pull out the 900 section of your Jepps and study! The RT for which airspace, when, why how and precisely what is all there.

It's always been a major issue for me when pilots decide which rules or SOPs they will choose to follow, and which they will choose to ignore. Do it right, every time and it becomes a matter of course and (that more and more illusive word!) "professional".

I had a simple but unfortunate method which I used to employ when the hints and requests to study didn't work: "If you can't use correct RT, then you won't make any radio calls." Now, when you're doing 8 sectors, no AP, in central Oz in summer, I found (some) FOs would get the point and study....

There is no need to let other persons unprofessionalism or lack of knowledge let your own standards slip. There inevitably leads to a slow degradation of standards across the board.

Flyinggit
 

"'Gun' oh I'm trying to do it right or the best way I know how. R/T to me is all about common sense not just about what's written in the regs. It's hard enough to get it right when a lot of the majors (international as well) say something different almost all the time when replying to an ATC directive for Eg."

Believe it or not, the "majors" , especially some of the internationals (English as a second language)are not the standard, AIP is.

'HL' yr remarks don't help either,unprofessionalism goes well beyond the radio as you display here. It's my opinion that I feel nobody does it by the book & I can only form that opinion by flying in the same airspace as you & everyone else listening to the same non std R/T procedures.

Clearly you haven't been around long enough to form or express an educated opinion (not your fault). If you just flog around the skies parotting the crap that comes out of the mouths of some of these operators because you find it to hard to understand and/or work to the real standards then you and your ilk are destined to prepetuate the verbal wankfest the rest of us are complaining about.

Yeah, this "pending clearance" thing drives me nuts....it should be "subject to clearance"!!:cool:

OK! Rather than just going around in circles, why don't we put up what we think the correct call shoule be! I'll go first, anyone else feel free to add/correct/subtract etc, then once we have got a consensus on each call, start another, might be a useful learning tool for those who wish to learn.

"ML Centre, Hughes 421 departed the Black Stump 47, tracking 123, climbing to FL230, estimating GRMPY at 13" and as we are proceeding into controlled airspace suffix this with "REQUEST CLEARANCE". :ok:

Refs: AIP GEN 5.14.8 (paragraph 4) and GEN 5.10 (paragraph 1).

Anyone else care to add?;)

My too sense
 

I don't even go that far, HH, simply because this is what happens 99% of the time:
Zep to ML CEN 123.45: "ML CEN Zep 641 departed Styx 62, tracking 415, climbing FL210, estimate ZEPPY 78."
ML CEN to Zep: "Zep 641, No IFR traffic, squawk 8898, approaching flight level 180 contact CEN 121.50 for airways clearance."

That 1% of the time when things are slightly different, ATC have your flight plan, which says you want to fly at FL210. They know that you need a clearance above FL180...thus we set the preselector to 18,000 to make sure we don't punch controlled airspace in case we forget to contact them for a clearance, or we are on the appropriate area frequency and ATC have got other things on their mind and forget to give us our clearance. When the altimeters go "ping", we'll remind ATC we need a clearance if they haven't already given us one.

:}:}

ML CEN to Zep: "CONFIRM TRACKING 415?":eek::eek::eek:

PS: Don't confuse people with talk of the altitude preselector...;)