This one has been discussed previously! :{

If you are that bored, it's here.

It's cool speak, so the talker thinks they sound cool.

And like, "copied no IFR traffic", and a plethora of others, it makes the speaker think that they have complied with read back requirements that they find too difficult to learn.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

"monkey see, monkey do", or in this case hear...;)

Ah, the sheer number of ridiculous things that my fellow pilots insist on saying on the radio.

Here's another variation:

What's with the "reference XX VOR"? Completely unnecessary. My fellow pilots just love saying unnecessary things.

And, more and more these days, I am noticing the departure call preceeded by:

What's with the "IFR" bit? Completely and totally unnecessary - but I guess it sounds cool. Poor airmanship and an indicator of a lack of professional discipline on the part of the pilot.

What about "request traffic". This phrase is in widespread use by IFR pilots across Australia. IT IS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY to "request traffic". Centre will always give it to you at the appropriate times. ALWAYS.

I have been flying IFR in Australia for over 10 years now and have never used this phrase - but Centre has always given me traffic when necessary.

Why on earth do pilots think they have to request traffic? Maybe because they hear so many others doing it. What next? Requesting takeoff clearance after the tower clears you to line up?

I know there is a phrase in the AIP for requesting traffic BUT THAT IS FOR TIMES WHEN CENTRE WON'T GIVE IT TO YOU AUTOMATICALLY (e.g. when VFR).

Hey you clowns that insist on "requesting traffic": If you're going to be consistent, how about you use it not only when changing level but start appending that phrase to your taxi report. E.g:

ABSOLUTELY NOT, NO WAY!

Traffic is NOT always given, particularly VFR traffic which is often far more danger than IFR traffic, specifically with unverified transponder levels.

I don't know how many times I've heard someone ask for traffic and they reply with, "no observed IFR (emphasis on IFR)" but when asked for VFR traffic, there could be half a dozen nearby.

The controller isn't in your aircraft. Smoke haze, pollution, visibility, sun glare, rain, the list goes on... have done it a few times under VFR when appropriate.

FGD135....i think pilots are confusing the call 'reference the VOR/NDB' with the departure report out of a Class D aerodrome on tower frequency. Even then, it is wrong to say 'reference the VOR' etc the correct call is (procedural when notifying departure report to a control tower): DEPARTED (time) TRACKING (track being flown) [B][FROM (reference aid used to establish track)[B] or VIA (SID identifier)] CLIMBING TO (level) ESTIMATING (first reporting point) AT (time).
Also you do NOT say 'departed at TIME zero two', the correct call is 'departed at zero two'.
While i'm on the soap box, can someone tell me if there is an exemption for RPT aircraft to not transmit the full taxi call at a controlled aerodrome? Most if not everyone's call is usually 'XXXX bay 4 with echo request taxi'......when in fact (and nowhere in the Jepps does it say 'unless RPT') the call is [flight number] [aircraft type] [wake turbulence category if "super or heavy"] [POB] RECEIVED (ATIS identification) [SQUAWK (SSR code)] [aircraft location] [flight rules] [TO (aerodrome of destination)] REQUEST TAXI [intentions].

VH-XXX,

Centre cannot give traffic information about VFR traffic. In 99.9% of cases, they do not know about VFR aircraft. They will give what information they can on unidentified radar observed traffic but that will usually be given only to IFR aircraft.

The phraseology abuse regarding "traffic" is confined to requests for IFR traffic by IFR aircraft.

The term "Pending Clearance" was first published in an AIP Supp, probably around 1999, when new airspace and radio procedures were being adopted. The Supp has been cancelled and thus the term should not be used. Try writing to Airservices, not me, if you want a copy.

The AIP Supp also had other recommendations to minimise radio chatter, such as, no need to say "Standby for departure" at the end of an airborne report when initiating a SARWATCH (when comms on the ground are not available). Funny how we have come full circle and seem to have more radio chatter, especially at a non-towered aerodrome.

I am lead to believe that AIP Supps are not issued with Jepps.
Do Jepps user have to download AIP Supps from Airservices?

Request Traffic - ATC do NOT always give me traffic when I would like it. They can't read my mind. If I know from prior experience and local knowledge that there are likely to be several aircraft given to me as traffic I want to find out about them in plenty of time BEFORE I make the initial CTAF call and before descent. As I'm often chugging around at 2-4000 feet TOD is after the inbound CTAF call so when ATC forgets about me in the non-airline piston twin I need to request traffic so I can start to sort out a plan of attack for separation and know which aircraft I should expect a response from. HOWEVER the pilots which say "Center, ABC, IFR Chieftain 1 POB taxing BLA for BLA runway 23 REQUEST TRAFFIC" really give me the sh*ts. He's going to give you traffic mate, that's what the taxi call is for. :ugh:

"Standby for departure" I know this is an unnecessary call but it seems every time I make an airborne call with POB soon after take off to initiate SARWATCH and I haven't had a chance to calculate an accurate ETA for my next point I get an ATC response of "go ahead with departure" and I end up having to tell them "Standby" anyway.

It's not rocket science!!!!

Log your departure time via the clock in the aircraft, or on your wrist (if not funky on 9.5 UTC such as Darwin/Adelaide) Write in on your flight plan, add the ETI from your plan to the departure time for your next reporting point and wallah!!!

Not always.......most of the time when i'm in class E on descent to class G i'll have to preempt centre as we need to run decent checklists, brief, do an all stations call and talk to the punters. If we have not received traffic by 10 mile to TOD I'll request it.

Here's another one:

Only need to let them know if you'll be visual all the way. No requirement to say on top. :ugh:

I like this one...

"visual on top of scattered", thanks for the weather report!:ok:

Lol HHughes thats classic.

Thats like the chick in a 172 I heard about 2 weeks ago when i was going up to Albury who busted CTA around Melbourne and when given the standard call "vfr traffic in the sugarloaf reservoir area etc etc" she responded with her callsign and i quote "not sure what happened but i was leaning the mixture to best economy and the autopilot just kept on climbing and i didnt notice".

Theres a life story and some excellent cockpit management for you!

In response to my statement that Centre will ALWAYS give you traffic at the appropriate times, The Green Goblin said:

How about just using the phraseology as it existed before CASA removed it from the AIP. That phraseology allowed you to get the traffic well in advance of starting descent. That phraseology was:

Centre, VH-ABC, commencing descent XXX in 3 minutes

This is what I use. Instead of 3 minutes, I might use 1 or 2. Note that this was the documented phraseology that existed in the AIP before CASA, in their infinite wisdom, removed all the Australian phraseology and replaced it with the ICAO standard set.

Going slightly off topic now and onto the subject of airmanship. The post from Wing Root reads as though he prefers to get traffic from Centre before he speaks on the CTAF.

That is poor airmanship. Good airmanship is to monitor the CTAF in advance in order to build up the traffic "picture". Then, when advising Centre of imminent descent, you can add that you have "copied VH-DEF, VH-GHI" etc. (You would only mention the IFR aircraft of course).

Thats what you're taught in your IFR training. No-one does it in the real world!

It's much quicker and easier to say XXX TOD XXX Request traffic. Followed by an all stations broadcast.

There is a reason why we do this. In our descent checklist it has 'altitude alert' and PF responds with the LSALT which has been set after traffic is received. If we have not got traffic by that stage then a quick call to centre is initiated.

Sometimes if you just say "XXX, commencing descent XXX in X minutes" you will get the reply from centre "XXX copied no additional" when you have not received traffic in the first place. It's much faster and easier for us to preempt them IMO.

mig3

The AIP clearly states what the ONLY format of the taxi call is. It is not expected that pilots modify the call at their discretion just because it 'makes sense'. I'm sure that a lot of other pilots say 'pending clearance' just because it 'makes sense' but it is WRONG. I agree that the taxi call is a bit of a mouthful as you quite rightly said that ATC already have part of the info already from the airways clearance. However, I still say it because the AIP says to say it, just like I say a departure report etc in the correct format. The whole reason for the gripe of the the OP et al is because of poor radio discipline in the first place. It seems to me that you're quite lax about your radio calls as are a lot of other pilots, I for one am not.

You obviously don't fly in the same part of the country that we do! Either that or your controllers have their eyes closed.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
planemad_bk, It seems that you are not as on top of your game as you think you are. Have a read of what the differant symbols mean.
Some things are not required to be read back twice. For example.
A flight plan has been submitted with A/C type, Rego, callsign, and flight rules. So you do not have to repeat these in a taxi call.
Same as transponder code and destination. They have been received and read back during obtaining an airways clearance.
Your position on the field has been determined during a request to push back, so this no longer needs to be transmitted.
So all that is left is POB (excluded for RPT and probably only for commercial privacy reasons, I dont really know), and whether or not you have received an up to date ATIS (and of coarse the actual request to taxi).

In short, NO. But there are no requirements to do so either.

Where does it explain these 'different' symbols in the Jepps?

Kiwi+Pilot, I dont have the reference in front of me at the moment, but when I do, Ill post it :ok:

Air Traffic Control, page AU-918. Para 7.1.1.1

The Green Goblin, you seem to be saying that it is better to obtain traffic closer to the actual TOPD point - rather than 2-3 minutes earlier. I just don't buy this.

But, that is a distraction from the point I was making. Which is:

If you are IFR, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO "REQUEST TRAFFIC" AT ANY TIME.

The words "request traffic" are redundant. Do you "request traffic" as part of your IFR taxi report?

Do you seriously believe that if you omit those words, Centre won't give you any traffic information?

Except that as a controller I might want to initiate a sight & follow - the "on top" gives me a fuller picture & tells me to be more cautious.

It is obvious that there can not be a written phrase for everything. My understanding of the "Visual" call was so the controllers can issue us with a Visual Approach.

le Pingouin, nearly every time I have been asked to sight and follow or sight and pass, I have been asked "are the conditions suitable for......" or "report sighting".

No.

But when flying in remote areas often centre 'forget' to pass on traffic for you before your TOD.

As the descent checklist is usually run about 10 miles prior to your nominated TOD the traffic will usually be requested as per the reasons I stated in my original post. I would say at least 50% of the time in a remote area you will have to request the traffic from centre as you will pass your TOD before they pass it on.

Utter rubbish. As is this:

Sounds more like bad management on your part.

If thats the case FGD then why is everyone doing it :ok:

If you're flying from terminal area to terminal area then it will never be an issue, but if you get out and do some 'real' flying you may be uttering those nasty words yourself!

Safe flying ace :p

GG,

Why don't you kill two birds with one stone and report 'approaching TOD XXXX' when you are 10 miles from TOD? (Isn't that what the AIP says anyway?)

They will give you traffic for descent and you can commence your descent 2-3 mins later without any further calls on centre.

It still helps with planning - "on top" tells me sight & follow probably isn't a good idea so I'll implement another plan early rather than let it run.

NOt quite Monopole. The call "VISUAL" to ATS indicates that the pilot believes that they can continue to the field visually clear of cloud, in sight of the ground or water, and desires a visual approach on arrival. It's a statement of nav capability, in flight conditions, and a request for the type of approach all rolled into one word.

Some believe that one cannot call "VISUAL" outside 30 nm but this belief is erroneous. If at, say, 60 nm one can see the destination city, is confident of navigating visually to the field, meeting the aforementioned conditions, one can call "VISUAL".

What about "??? TWR, VH?, READY IN TURN"

How about, " READY I'm moving in front of all youse" or "READY I'm taxiing straight"

Maybe just "READY" ........ mmmmmmmmm

Ahh.....what a entertaining thread...:ok:
Makes listening to inbound calls on PAL and Area freqs, and watching tri-landings even funnier......:D.

In flight conditions
 

Ok, I'll bite.

On first contact with approach, when required to report in flight conditions, how would you describe VMC but with a layer of cloud (overcast or scattered on inbetween) below you? I use 'on top' (different to visual on top but that's by the by)?

Back to some of the earlier bugbears, I heard several sky gods yesterday get queried over the read back of 'nine thousand' because it wasn't clear. One genius, when asked to confirm niner thousand replied with 'nine thousand' which didn't confirm anything at all. Was surprised that ATC let it pass - maybe it was slightly clearer to them second time around.

UTR

Green Goblin, you are required to report position to ATS prior to changing levels outside controlled airspace. This is when they will give you traffic. You don't need to say "request traffic", just tell them your position and what you are about to do, they will always come back with a traffic statement. If you are in controlled airspace then they may wait until you are approaching class G before giving traffic or handing you off to the low level controller for traffic.

UTR, isn't the call of "visual" made to indicate you can make a visual approach, therefore if you are "visual on top" then you are not visual at all (unable to navigate with reference to the ground or water) and should say nothing.

I think you will find stating "ready in turn" is a good phrase as sometimes the twr guys get very busy when handling grnd & twr together as one freq & they are distracted & believe yr the next to take off when in fact you are behind another A/C. I have had this exact situation & told to line up, hard to do when I am No2 in line!

Look ALL of us use non std R/T procedures from time to time, when under duress we all tend to say things that are different, humans we are not machines & often act accordingly to the situation at hand. BUT having said that there are some atrocious R/T procedures from pvt toy planes right the way up to international jet carriers.

The "KISS" method works well say as little as possible if safe to do so:-)


Wmk2

:ugh:The response to this thread further proves my theory that even if you’re the ace from space but sound like a d*ckhead on the radio, that’s what others will think you are.

Guard: There is no reference to a guard frequency in AIP. However most military aircraft have a UHF radio that can Tx/Rx on the selected frequency, and Rx on 243.0 MHz otherwise referred to as “guard” frequency. This is where use of the term “guard” may have come from.

Request Traffic: AIP GEN page 3.4 – 33, down the bottom shows the phrase “request traffic” is an “approved” phrase.

Visual on Top: AIP ENR page 1.1 – 20 paragraph 11.1.6 states that on first contact with Approach Control the pilot should report “flight conditions”. I can’t find anywhere else in AIP that expands on this. Therefore in my opinion; “in cloud” means exactly that, “visual” means I am clear of cloud and can see the ground/water, and “visual on top” means I am clear of cloud but can’t see the ground/water because there’s cloud underneath. I consider this pertinent information to pass to ATC.

The phraseology listed in AIP cannot cover all possible situations. Sometimes “plain speech” is the most efficient way of getting the message across. That’s my justification for using the phrases above to describe “flight condition”.:ok:

And my pet hate……….."climbing to flight levels”.:yuk: WTF is this supposed to mean? “Hey everybody, I’m flying a pressurised aircraft and can operate above 10,000FT”. Another one of these “kool” phrases to use. How about actually stating what level you’re climbing to as per AIP. Page GEN 3.5 – 55 if you’re too lazy to find it yourself.:ugh:

AIP ENR 11.1.6 (b) says: so, no, you shouldn't say 'nothing'

UTR

1) OK no one has even touched on HF.

Why do all the majors use non-standard position reports on HF. When SELCAL check fails, and I have to listen to all those reports, it is highly frustrating to try to explain to a co-pilot, that what the American Airlines (or QF or NZ etc) guy just said is in fact not correct. Reference "NEXT" as the last word in the phrase...

i.e. "BN, ABC, XXX AT YYYY, MAINTAINING FL XXX, ESTIMATING XX AT YYYY, XXXX NEXT"

Someone show me where that is in AIP.

2) Another pet hate - use of "REFERENCE THE OMNI" in a departure report.

3) Another one - why do QLINK insist on making CTAF calls on CENTRE. They seem to be the only ones who insist on doing this - I cannot see any benefit to it other than clogging up a busy CEN freq.

4) On the clearance topic, I do "Request clearance" if OCTA and approaching the Class C step - too often recently have I had to enter a hold to remain OCTA because ATC have not given me a clearance in time.

5) On the request traffic topic, I do request traffic when conducting practice instrument approaches and about to depart for next loc - if I can get this before the Missed Approach (workload pending), then I can conduct the missed approach and depart on track, without having to hold, "REQUEST IFR TRAFFIC FOR DEPARTURE".

If it's the call I'm thinking of, it's not a CTAF call. It's given at top of descent when leaving CTA into a class G. Let's everyone in the the general area (who are not on the CTAF frequency) know that you're inbound.

It is an important call as the may be VFR traffic transiting the area that could be a conflict to the inbound aircraft.

UTR, it says "flight conditions if appropriate." When do you consider it NOT appropriate to give the conditions?

Cougar- re: NEXT - It's not from the AIP
Try Jeppesen WWT ATC pg. 451
Item 6 in a position Report
----Ensuing Significant Position- "(position)/NEXT"---
That's where you'll find it.
But of course, if you wished to use the AUS AIP then "FOLLOWING POINT - (position)" would also be correct.
In QF, as do most international carriers, we use the Jepp manuals, so perhaps you might now like to tell your co-pilot that it is you, whom is wrong.