Attention:Qantas Longhaul Flight Attendants Accommodation
 

17 May 2008
Attention all Qantas Longhaul Flight Attendants

Update on Room Allocation and Seniority

Last week I wrote to you and advised you that the Company have changed the Compliance Sheet so that crew appear in Category order and alphabetically. Further, the hotels also receive information in Alphabetical order now as well.
We have been inundated with calls and emails from Flight Attendants, Supervisors and Managers, whose mood has been less than overjoyed at suddenly being allocated hotel rooms on the basis of their fathers surname without recognition of their years of service.
Furthermore our newer members as well as AKL and BKK crew have also found the whole process de-motivating, and before crew start reacting in ways that would be unedifying we ask for patience so that we can try and find a sensible solution with the Company.
I have spoken to senior management over this weekend and they have agreed to meet on Monday to try and find a sensible and practical resolution. I think it would be fair to say that some have underestimated how important these “little” things are for crew.
There is a chain of command on an aircraft that works in Seniority Order, and that is part of our CCOM. There is no reason to depart from a system that worked for everyone.
Under the established system if your name is Zimmerman your seniority will determine work position and hotel room allocation, under the newly “non agreed” process you will find yourself at the end of room selection and work position selection for the rest of your career. Seniority moves up, your name doesn’t normally change.
As I said previously, “Aaron Aardvark” formerly known as Steven Reed could well be the future for all of us, if we cannot get some simple changes agreed next week.
Please be patient, I am hopeful a sensible solution can be found.

How does this make you feel?

just a sign of things to come

haha ..... rotten bas'tards..... the rot is setting in all over now aint it

ROOM ALLOCATION, SENIORITY AND COMPLIANCE SHEETS - 23 May
 

The Discussion

"QCCA crew would know that the Company wished to maintain a “fair share” system for work allocation. However, we pointed out that the use of the alphabet discriminates against those whose names are at the end of the alphabet, and that is hardly fair share."

"FA (QCCA, AKL, BKK in random order) not alphabetical"


Is a random order a “fair share” system for QCCA?

it would be so much easier if the hotel rooms and work positions went on D.O.J.
its simple, effective, and easy.
The alphabetical system is very very discriminatory.

who's idea was it anyway....

the AKL based crew will be surprised to hear this from me, but their work positions should be on seniority

Quote:

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the AKL based crew will be surprised to hear this from me, but their work positions should be on seniority

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Well all seniority isn't fair either as QCCA who started yesterday for example would be senior to AKL and BKK crew.
DOJ would definitely be the fairer option as long as it involved all crew right across all bases.

Just my two bobs worth.

Hhhmmmm,

I do suspect this is the start of things to come.. How do other airlines manage allocation of positions? I don't think seniority is the case with all airlines.

One airline I worked for allocated work positions according to DOJ. We had about 6 crew bases at the time and seniority was based on DOJ regardless of base.

Other airlines, the SCCM would either allocate before the briefing, distributing the experience evenly or would just ask "who wants to work where?" and we just worked it out amongst ourselves. Our newbies had 'position cards' which recorded what positions they had worked previously and they needed to work all the positions a few times, including galley, so this had to be taken into account when the more senior crew chose where to work.

Assigning positions alphabetically was obviously thought up by someone who has never flown. I can't help but wonder if this is to demotivate senior crew so they will leave.

Quote-
"I can't help but wonder if this is to demotivate senior crew so they will leave."

Correct.

It is also designed to avoid the situation that currently exists in airlines where, the more senior you become the more/better "choices" you have.

Can't have happy crew hanging around past their "use by" date, can we??

QF management really are nothing more than ideologically driven, lowlife.

And today's update from the FAAA.

http://www.faaa.net/showfile.asp?id=1423&type=N

Just goes to show who the union thinks are more important.
I guess they didn't like the preallocated system as this wouldn't give the QF LH crew the choice either. If all QCCA/AKL/ and BKK crew were preallocated that means QFLHCC would be theoretically last to choose work positions.
This whole thing is a complete balls up and just another way to divide crew....pffft

The differences between QF and QCCA employes are outlined in EBA8. At the moment it appears the union is favouring one group more than the other.

I guess it is hard for the union to do this though, since there employee representation is only comming from a Qantas employee and not a QCCA employee.

Perhaps the FAAA were unable to convince qantas management to budge on their position re QCCA in what I'm sure they consider a, "greenfield operation".

The FAAA can jump up and down as much as they like but QF do make the decisions............

ok here we go! skylarker and QFLHFA are starting the whining and crying about the union favouring one group over the other.
At present the majority of crew are QFLH and the QCCA are a very small minority.
However, this union at the moment is actually supporting the QCCA quite strongly, just read that hideous newsletter that was written recently by the union titled
8 May 2008
Attention all Qantas Longhaul Flight Attendants
ELECTION FOR DIVISIONAL SECRETARY

If you think the union is not supporting you then read this newsletter, it infuriated a lot of LH crew, it was seen as very insulting to the QFLH crew, as the vast majority have welcomed the QCCA crew and continue to do so.
Why they published this letter is beyond many of us as we had no idea that such thoughts or comments were being circulated.

Anyway, stop your whining and let QF management know how you feel about the allocation of work positions.
I can assure you that the current QCCA employees will want some say of where they go and where they work in about 5 years time!

I dissagree with your interpretation of the letter dated 8 May 2008.

For the FAAA to be supporting both QCCA and QFA they need to suggest to Qantas for alined proposals for workplace and hotel room allocation.

The divisions between the two are outlined in EBA8, for the FAAA to even propose to Qantas to serperate them any futher (after Qantas bought them together using an Alphabetical order) only supports the fact that they only considering what's best for QFA.

The fact is that QCCA is going to grow, and for the FAAA to not be behind the small group that they are now will only find themselves with a smaller percentage of members from the Long Haul CC division than what they are currrently used to. You can't win without numbers.

Nonsense...................

Speak to a colleague employeed under how QCCA's conditions, ask how they feel? You have nothing to loose since the union didn't.

The Union must remember to consider and support QCCA as equally as QFA or they will find themselves in a weak position. They will loose members. I already heard talk of crew resigning from the Union and the group has only been around for 3 months.

QFLHFA

just leave if you dont like it!
Honestly you seem hell bent on causing trouble.
MAM at s/haul are waiting for you, now go on go back, we really dont need your ilk Here at LH....go on, stop your whining and get back to MAM.
Your collegues are having a good time here, realy enjoying themselves,
ITS JUST YOU!

After reading your posts, you are the one causing trouble attacking other forum posters.

I'm state facts and I'm interested in other peoples opinions.

I understand thats difficult for you, it is something a lot of us at Qantas aren't used to, interested in someone else's opinon. Your previous responses are evident to that.

just go back will you!

Honestly we dont need your negativity, NOW scadadle!!! go on!

QCCA FA's and the FAAA
 

would like to share with all u guys that I have been talking to a lot of my QCCA colleagues and the vast majority that has joined the union has done so only because they had a "deal" of not charging new QCCA FA's till the end of this financial year. the problem that the union will face is that I have not met one single QCCA FA that has said that they will sign up after that and pay the $ 625 yearly fee. it will be very very interesting to see how many new members the union will have next financial year.
in regards to the whole seniority thing and room allocation, recently a new FA, that i know, when checking in in sin was asked by another senior QF crew for her room keys because he had swapped their rooms around . I couldnt believe his audacity. I totally respect and understand how seniority is important but doing that was wrong wrong wrong. after all its just a room. cant c the difference of staying on the 50th, 35th, 25th or 11th floor.

bla bla.......... are you sure about this deal......re the membership waiver, if so this is outrageous.
can anyone shed some light on this/

Granny, want something to knit in crew rest. Maybe your mouth?

cartexchange
 

i am 110% sure about that as i am a QCCA FA myself.
i dont wanna get to political here but, under my current pay there is no way i can afford $ 625 bucks per year . and that goes for a LOT of my friends that fly. i honestly dont know 1 that has said they will renew/ take up their membership.
( as i said i dont wanna get involved in the pay thing as ii is my choice to be here ).

but i guarantee you, that, in my opinion the union will have no members from QCCA when the next financial year kicks in.
the excellent "deal" they got us will bite the FAAA back in their B****.
time will tell. no members no $.

I can confirm the FAAA did waiver membership til July 1st. I am a new recruit and was advised by the FAAA directly and the Union Rep that spoke to us in ground school.
I would have joined then anyway! First impressions are that QF management aren't the most engaging bunch that ever ran a business.

FAAA Fees
 

During Training School and coming out onto reserve line was deemed by the FAAA particularly tough financially for the new QCCA crew. Furthermore during probation, new employees have no access to unfair dismissal laws. It was therefore deemed a recruiting exercise to offer a short waiver of fees to new flight attendants until the start of the financial year.

In the mean time the FAAA have met with the company almost daily in the implementation of EBA 8. for both QCCA and QAL crew.

The EBA deals with semiority for QAL crew but not QCCA no do AKL BKK or LHR have seniority.

The debacle over alphabetical started when the Kiwi crew objected to the QCCA crew being given choice of room allocation and work position ahead of them.

They got their Union to approach Qantas for recognition of their "seniority".

CC Management immmedialtely reacted by withdrawing the seniority numbers of not only the Kiwi crew but everyone other than QAL crew wwhere the EBA requires them to use seniority.

They moved to an alphabetical system that had unintended consequences for everyone and the FAAA has been trying to clean up the mess ever since.

The FAAA position is clearly Start Date for everyone. Until QCCA crew start putting pressure on Qantas for recognition of their start date and telling them they dont want the so called fair share it will not happen,

Further, if the QCCA crew arent members of the union then they have no representation. That would be just plain stupid and my experience is that they are anything but stupid.

They will continue to be members of the FAAA in the same percentages as QAL crew, and if they dont then only they will suffer not the QAL crew i can assure you all.

Without representation Qantas will just do whatever they want including sacking you for looking sideways or not carrying a waiters cloth.

Remember that many of these managers are lunatics

Good responce Peg
 

It's easy!!!

You know the rules before you start and if you don't like them then don't join.

If you like the rules welcome, nice to have as part of the team and together we'll get you better conditions.

United we stand and devided we give bonus points.:ugh:

Qflhfa
 

.......which toadstool did you pop up from???

First we have Pegasus, then, Guardian 1.......what next do we get from the latte sippers from the bunker ?

This was always going to happen, ie. step by step dismantling of the Seniority system. Lets face it boyz and girlsz-QCCA will have ALL the power in 5 years time.

The next EBA -we'll be hammered and the seniority system will be all but forgotten-just like the beach that use to come up to the steps at the Gulf Hotel !!!:8

Just like that Monty Python Pet Shop sketch.

WAKE UP POLLY PARROT !!!!..........THIS BIRD IS EXTINCT !

Stubby i dont share your pessimistic view in fact i think quite the opposite will occur.

Far from the QCCA crew wanting to get rid of seniority i am already hearing that if anything that they want to be part of it.

And i for one agree with them. Seniority plain and simple just works.

Fair share is horse**** .....its just a recipe for corruption and allowing the company to play with rosters as they see fit. i for one am totally against anything other that recognition of years of service. It doesnt have to be the be all and end all but it must be given appropriate recognition

stubby jumbo
 

couldnt agree more with u. at the end of this EBA 8 QCCA will outnumber QAL and with all honesty we ( and i speak for the friends that i have ) dont give a rats a** about seniority.
we, that have come from MAM, are used to NO seniority. and in terms of how up u r in the "hotel" seniority ladder, love, i wont even go there. as i previously said its just a room. and as i heard the other day from a QCCA flight attendant's mouth: " that b***h can have the 43rd floor. i am happy on the 11th . its just a room and in case there's a fire im closest to the ground than she is !!!".
that said, cant wait to c hwo many QCCA members the union will have.
and yes A_B_P and UDP, there r 2 of u. congrats.
i wish i could afford the current union fees. i am and have always been union pro, dont take me wrong. my problem is i can not afford $625 per year. and when i say that, i assure you, i am not alone. in my case and in many others it is an affordability problem.
in short haul the union would cost me about $300 per year. have always been a member since the day i joined. but that was half than the current membership. in my case i have bills coming out of my pores. do u know how much i could stock up my pantry with $ 625 ? food to last me a while. i knw its sad but its reallity.
would love the FAAA to come up with a better deal after the end of this financial year. as a short haul casual we only paid half the ammount that the QF SH crew, which was a really good deal for eveybody. its just a suggestion. and not once i heard any QF SH crew saying that it was unffair.

Solution to union fees!!!

Considering QCCA are paid almost $30,000 less than QLH crew, perhaps the FAAA should consider reducing QCCA union fees by 50%, or better more, increase the fees of QLH crew to cover the fees of QCCA crew... I think that's a fair deal, I'm sure the QLH crew would also.

It frustrates me to hear QFA crew talking about low wages of other cabin crew when in fact QCCA are have the lowest base salary for cabin crew in Australia. I am so embarrassed they even comment about it. Then some also ask them about their conditions yet they voted them in? I guess a majority of people just saw the $'s Qantas threw and ticked yes? Bit like dangling a carrot infrot of a rabbit.

I also agree that QCCA will outnumber QF in 5 years time, if they don't outnumber them, the percentage will be at least half if not more, and without their involvement with the union QFA are toast.

QF looked for crew with previous flying experience in most cases when hiring for QCCA.Most have come from other airlines which don't use seniority, MAM, Jetstar, Emirates, Virgin, Tiger, Qantaslink, so I doubt crew from QCCA really care for it now, especially since QCCA will be at the bottom of a very old list.

I also support the theory of QCCA paying a reduced rate of union fee's it should be based on your salary. If QF can create a B scale that the union supported, then the union should support it by offering a B scale membership fee.

Tax deductable
 

Union fees are tax deductible.
The downturn in the current aviation cycle will probably slow the growth of QCCA as routes are culled and aircraft parked
QFLHFA sounds like the reincarnation of an extinct troll

Say what you like about me. I'm stating my opinion based on what I heard at work. I understand it is scary to hear and accept the truth.

couldnt agree more with some of the points mentioned here.
if the union could come up with a reduced membership rate im in. i know its tax deductable but i have to come up with the ocsts up front and wait a whole financial year to c some of it back. not fun !
and as QFLHFA mentioned, a lot of current QCCA crew have been hired form other airlines without seniority, hence my comment a few threads behing that we dont give a rats a** about seniority. we have all lived without it. and yes we will outnumber u guys. ( although i doubt i will be around till the next EBA to c it anyway... )
A_B_P when u say: " I have been shown nothing but empathy for our position from the current crew regarding our wages..." ; i would bloody hope so considering they r the ones that voted the big YES.
i hear a lot of QFLH crew saying things like: OMG! i cant believe they r doing this to you. this roster is apawling. pooor thing... bla bla bla - and that should be illegal. they wouldnt be able to do that to us... and so on... u know what ? i never say anything but at times i feel like saying: SAVE UR PITY. I HOPE U ENJOYED UR $3K BRIBE.
its all down hill from now on. and in my opinion this seniority thing is just the begining. enjoy the ride.

As a QCCA member I am at the bottom of the barrel for rosters, hotels and all the rest of it. If I was a brand new QF Airways cabin crew on the QF eba, I would be at the bottom of the barrel.
I stand back when checking into hotels, Not because of the QF seniority but out of courtesy to other crew who are flying. If someone wants the 43rd floor facing the Pacific Ocean go for it. Its yours. I am not paying for it so I am not going to make demands for it.
I am happy to have a job and be flying. :ok:
I support the Union and respect the crew that have been in the job longer than me and we are all adults so thats all that matters.

FAAA Fees
 

An unfair termination costs the same for a QCCA crew member as for QAL crewmember. Generally around 30-40k. Not including the time of the union officials.

For those suggesting reduced fees are they suggesting that the FAAA should also pro rate the amount of money spent on a defence and say only spend 15-20K

The reality is that the cost of membership is tax deductible and i can assure you that the FAAA will offer the same level of representation to QCCA members as QAL members.

The SH FAAA has a range of fees and even with that half the MAM's were not members. and SH flight attendants are resigning in droves apparently.

If you get into trouble and you are not an FAAA member dont expect any assistance. Income is one factor, but the FAAA fought for the same meal allowances, theh same overtime triggers and a range of other things to be the same. Much better than Jetstar conditions. If you want to pro rate the fees then perhaps you should pro rate the meal allowances and everything else.
The FAAA fees pay for a service and if you dont feel that it represents value for money then dont join. But then dont complain that you dont have a voice or a vote.

If you want to get better conditions the solidarity of the union is the only thing that will achieve it. If you are not FAAA members then your conditions will never improve.

QCCA crew have promotional opportunities that would not be there in MAM , they get the same annual leave and Long Service leave as QAL crew, Same meal allowances etc ...all fought for in the negotiations by the FAAA.

Ask an FAAA rep what the company really wanted and why it took two years of talks to achieve the EBA outcome.

WIthout the FAAA and current long haul crew voting for it, then the jobs wouldnt exist or if they did it would be on massively reduced conditions.

If you feel that the fees are too much then you should write to the FAAA, i am sure there are no closed minds on the executive and a reasonable approach should be discussed rationally. Just bear in mind that after tax its not a lot of money compared to the benefits

Well Dixons-son you are obviously more ill-mannered than I am.

Standing back when crew check into the hotel doesn't make a difference as room allocation is organised by hotels before the crew arrive.

Peg.. few questions/comments

You said:
"If you want to get better conditions the solidarity of the union is the only thing that will achieve it. If you are not FAAA members then your conditions will never improve."

I don't think the Union heard any complaints from any QCCA crew members when the alphabetic system was introduced. The only thing the FAAA was concerned about was QFA, QCCA were quite happy having seniority taken from under QFA's feet in order to have an equal chance of workplace allocation.

You said:
"QCCA crew have promotional opportunities that would not be there in MAM , they get the same annual leave and Long Service leave as QAL crew, Same meal allowances etc ...all fought for in the negotiations by the FAAA."

It doesn't take a mathemation to calculate that company preffer QCCA for promotional positions when they can pay them 50k to do the job rather than 100k. Look at the entry level for flight attendants now compared to what QFA get at entry level.

Seriously, if the union wants to keep QCCA members I suggest they think of something very fast. Pretty bad if they gave crew 3 months free membership and didn't even prove their worthiness to them in that time by favouring QFA.