It's official.Flight training to be HECS as of may 08
 

Rumours were popping around the flight deck for some time now but having just come back from work and hearing it from a very trustworthy source, who has no reason to make such a statement if they were not 100% confident.
"It was still being finalised, thats why there were rumours floating around but yeh it's finally come through.It's starting in may, probably because they don't want it to be put off for any longer for obvous reasons.150hours intergrated CPL only i heard and it will be available to all students at all flying colleges.I hear we have a certain julia gillard to thank..but who would know as of yet.Apparently an age limit applies but that im not 100% sure about.We should know more in the coming days"

I think it's great that it's finally going to happen and Oz being one of few countries offering this to the people.I think the only downside to this will be the hundreds of guys who payed up and got loans in the recent months/years who are sure to be very PISSED about this.I for one am very happy as my nephew wont have to put off his training any longer.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :mad::mad::mad:
i started nov 07
:{:{

Lets wait till we hear something official eh! Its a rumour network...

If this is indeed true, I hope they limit the number of HECS places available and the maximum HECS amount available.

Leaving flying schools in charge of determining the number of places available and the fees to be charged would be like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank.

if this is true then it's a kick in the backside for those johnny supporters who rubbished the new gov.

oh thats super,mate it doesn't matter mate how many they put through cause it will be just the same as going to uni.there are stacks going through uni including mature students who have no idea of getting a job and that means they don't pay hecs back.
if you go through any school and get a license then you have to get a job by passing an interview like any other job.on the flip side if you don't impress them in the interview you don't get the nod.
word will get around and only the ones that really want to fly will go for it.
bingo welcome to the real world.

its official, flying trainers will become a dime a dozen and quality of applicants will be similar to that for a bachelor of arts!

Flying training under these terms will be very interesting indeed. It's 'till now a well structured industry. Could this be it's demise as we know it?
Let's hope that only good things come from this but like all 'inventions' there will no doubt be problems where we wish it had never been invented in the first place! If it's Govt initiated then that's a grey area in the first place!


F

WOW so many negative replys already! lets see the fine print first before predicting the end of professional aviation in Australia.

Was not too long ago many posters were lamenting the lack of HECS for flight training!

I believe my tax statement now calls it FEE-HELP.

That makes it "official"? :confused:

:ugh:

Tail Wheel

My only problem with this is that it will create an illusion that getting a CPL is the equivalent of getting a bachelors degree.

gee, all the time people here are complaining about the cost of learning to fly and now with the rumour that it will be picked up by hecs and people are still moaning.
you can't please anyone or is this more sour grapes from liberal supporters.
hasselhof,what exactly is wrong with getting a degree from uni or do you think your smarter than doctors etc..?

Within a couple of years if this is true, it will become an employers market again. It will then be back to working at the pub and servo for a season before you get your first checkride :(

Im all for it if it helps the young aspiring aviator get a set of shiny wings, but i cant help but think it will attract some less desirables into the industry.

Wait and see :)

I have a degree from uni and I studied medicine for a year (in fact I'm still enrolled on a leave of absence) so I'm not sure what point you're making. What I'm saying is that previously the only way to get HECS was to be dedicated to a long and difficult, thorough course of study of a high academic level. Getting your CPL is not any of those things (all right... it can be difficult at times but nothing compared to what most degrees will throw at you).

Things might have changed but I was under the impression that you didn't have HECS for any courses other than University degrees.

Exactly. Who would want to go back to those days.

I think it's a great plan! It seems to me that from some of the replies that I've seen on this web site, "undesirables" get into the industry anyway.

I, for one, would be happy if it were to happen, and no doubt every other pilot to be would agree! I do feel sorry for the ones that have already done the hard yards financial, but I'm sure they haven't regreted it!

Manage it properly
 

If this is indeed true I hope there will be a thorough screening, testing and interview phase before handing out places willy-nilly.

Uni is already full of half-assed teens who are only enrolled because everyone else did.

I find a lot of students like the 'idea' of aviation, but actually have very little knowledge about it. I think the fact learning to fly is so expensive weeds out the half-assed from the passionate, and opening the flood gates to anyone may be detrimental to the good students.

As long as the scheme is managed correctly, it will benefit the industry in the long run. If managed incorrectly, we may find that the good students take longer to achieve their goals due to the fact aeroplanes and instructors are busy reteaching the half-assed students who don't study at home, don't listen in briefings and don't care.

and about half if not more of them flunk out in the first year because they don't want to do the hard yards.
but guys look at the big picture this is great for the industry cause it recognises how important it is.

plus if dixon tries to start up a scheme where you have to pay for it then it throws a spanner in the works forhim

I agree with Strim.
I think the way it is now people who have taken out loans and got themselves into a finacial struggle just to accomplish their dreams it really sorts out the people who actually want to fly.

Ive taken out a loan, and added some more on top of it all for my flying, and i know that i want my investment to pay off.:\

I think the whole HECS-HELP things with the flying training is try and stop the "pilot shortage" in Australia. Maybe they need a bit more emphasis on the people already training in the industry, maybe an offset or be able to claim part of our expenses. I mean, we are training to earn income in the future.
:oh:

but isn't that exactly what hecs is mate?

i mean you are supposed to pay it off just like any other uni degree when you get a job.

or are some people here annoyed that they had to organise a loan the old way and now the newbies can get it through hecs.

if this rumour comes around it looks like you can't please some people

Strim raises an excellent point, IMHO.

For the record, I don't stand to benefit at all from this program, but I think it's an great idea if it is managed right.

At present University applicants are screened through their HSC results. CPL candidates are only screened through their bank balances.

I would hope that not every Tom, Dick and Harriet who rocks up at the local flying school can rack up a government loan of several thousand dollars without any formal selection process.

Wasn't a similar scheme available in NZ a few years ago? I stand to be corrected, but I think one end result was a whole heap of young people with large debts and not much else to show for it.

NO!!! And thats another part of the problem. HECS is a government scheme by which students become financially responsible for PART of their tertiary education, the government pays the rest. For example take medicine. The full domestic fee for a medical degree is something in the order of $150 000 to $200 000 depending on where you go. The commonwealth supported places within medicine (read HECS places) end up paying approx $40 000 of that as HECS payments. Fortunately for most students paying HECS you can choose to defer payment of these fees which is where the assumption that it is all a loan comes into the equation.

If the government wanted to start up a LOAN scheme whereby the student repays the full cost of their training then by all means. But not HECS. HECS is for degree level education.

thats right tlaw and wouldn't that be great if you had to have a good pass in the hsc and get your uai just like you do to get into uni.

the way it is now all that matters if daddy is rich enough or he is a cp or similar.

this way we would get the right people and if you don't have the cash up front but have studied at school and have the ability your into the semi's without dropping a shot and get a shot at your dreams.

According to the Dept of Employment education and training web site, it is called VET FEE-HELP. Similar to Hecs, but not limited to Uni/Tafe.

1a-tej have looked at the site can't find anything on flight training. Got a link (Track Jnr may be interested)?

yep! www.dest.gov.au then in the search box type in "vet". It will bring up the details.:ok: Not specific for flight training, but to the flight training provider to apply for the scheme.

Thats what I thought as well:{

Although if the places are limited it would probably be a good thing....

Indeed. Working overseas with no intention of returning to repay HECS anytime soon
Has a familar ring to it doesnt it?

Hasselhof...
I go along with roamingwolf and that you can call it whatever you want but it is essentially a subsidised government loan.

It is true that the government pays most of the bill and that is the subsidised part and that the student pays about about one fifth or so of the total.

If someone has negotiated a deal for those who want to get a degree in aviation and either fly or whatever then that's great news.

http://mediacentre.dewr.gov.au/media...ceBill2008.htm

Interesting if it is true. A careful read of the above press release would appear to rule out the diploma courses run by schools at BK etc. It is quite specific that to be eligible: "VET providers have credit transfer arrangements with a higher education provider in place for each VET accredited Diploma or Advanced Diploma qualification."
This appears to mean that the course must lead to further education in the University system in order for FEE Help to become available.
Of course if my interpretation is wrong and it does become available to all it still doesn't cancel the fact that you must pay it back!
The Comet.

Its all about the wording. There are three main funding arrangements for higher education these days

HECS-HELP
This is a loan scheme that allows students to defer payment of fees for commonwealth supported places. To the best of my knowledge the CSP funding only covers the cost of individual courses within a degree program that are provided by approved universities. These are limited in number, and academically competitive in allocation. CSP funds do not cover the flight training aspect of a Bachelor of Aviation degree at a university for example. This is effectively an interest free student loan on the already subsided cost of a university degree.

FEE-HELP
This is a loan scheme that allows students to defer payment for fees in a full fee paying place in an approved tertiary education award at university. There is no government subsidy toward the total cost of the award unlike there is with subsidized CSP places. This is effectively an interest free student loan for the full cost of a university degree.

VET FEE-HELP
This is a loan scheme that allows students to defer payment for the full cost of fees in an approved tertiary education award at locations other than university. (Eg it covers Diploma, Advanced Diploma level courses etc). There is no government subsidy toward the total cost of the award unlike there is with subsidized CSP places. This is effectively an interest free student loan for the full cost of a tertiary award from tertiary education providers other than those provided for by HECS-HELP or FEE-HELP loans.

If the government wants to put flight training under HECS-HELP then I am totally against it. Subsidized flight training is something that should be provided for by the military or the private sector (see the subsidy provided by Rex).

If they want to provide VET FEE-HELP loans to CPL students then I'm all for it. I wish that model of funding was around when I did my training and I certainly won't begrudge any student that takes the opportunity.

This will never happen end of story. HECS for the uni course YES but for the flying I dont think so. And if it does happen then what happens to all of us that have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and are paying off loans? :confused:

It used to happen in the 70's. Plenty of guys got instrument ratings paid for.

I hope it happens but only if it is open to all. I'm a 39 y.o. (turning 40 this year) CPL student that already has a loan of $15000 with none left for more flying and can't afford a top up loan at the moment due to family, childcare etc. Hopefully this isn't going to be age limited....:uhoh: as i really want to finish this off and get a real job....FLYING

cool! where can i apply! will this be available in any VIC flight schools? i know you can already do this at Griffith Uni in QLD as part of their bachelor of aviation degree. Also what about rotary wing courses.

WHY?????

tell me the difference between a student studying to be a pilot,an architect,a doctor,a lawyer or whatever.

as long as this is done with an approved uni and flying school and you have passes the entry quals. then so what.

this is what this is all about.we live in the 'me' generation.

OK kiddies, I'll don me professorial bonnet and learn youse sompin!

A university offering a non-full fee paying domestic student places in a traditional professional degree program (ie medicine) receives funding from two sources:

1) CGS = Commonwealth Grants Scheme = monies paid by the Federal Government to the university for a funded student place

2) HECS = Higher Education Contribution Scheme = monies paid by the student to the university as a contribution to the cost of their education.

The Federal Gov make a HECS loan scheme available whereby a student can defer payment of their HECS. The Feds pay the money to the Uni and then collect the money back from the student when they start earning above a threshold - via the income tax system.

The ratio of CGS:HECS varies with the degree program.

For medicine (off the top of my head) its something like:

CGS ($16,000) + HECS ($8,000) = $24,000 total per annum to the university for a med student.

Total funding is in a number of bands (12?) with Medicine and others in the top band and law (I think) and others in the bottom band.

The $24,000 pa to the uni for a funded place in medicine compares with about $32,000 for a full fee domestic place, and maybe $35,000 for an international full fee place.

The argument that should be made to the Rudd Gov is for approved aviation degree programs (eg Griffiths) to be funded as for medicine (including the flying component) with CGS and HECS, and for the HECS loan scheme to be available to enrolled students.

Lesson over.

Dr :8

I have worked for 5 years solid to save 90 grand, dollar for every stinking dollar! That is commitment.:suspect: I, fortunately, don't need to use HECS and pisses me off to hear others who simply hit the bank up for the money, complaining about those able to access HECS for their training and labeling them as uncommitted!!! In my opinion, if you can't save the money, you are no more deserving than those you gripe about!!!:=

Getting a regular loan through a bank is no different to using HECS!!! Doesn't make you more committed or worthy of a job!!! Getting the job will always come down to performance and attitude and not necessarily in that order. Regardless of the fact that I have saved all required funds to see myself through to ATPL, DOES NOT entitle me to a job over someone who uses a bank loan or HECS!!!

I agree that there needs to be screening for this scheme to be successful. But for those that put themselves on a pedestal because they are using a bank loan and not a government loan, chill out your attitude is ass about and my guess is you'd find it hard to get past the interview stage!!!:E

For the last time!!! :eek:

The debate here is should flight training be subsidized by the government (HECS)?

or

Should students receiving flight training have access to interest free student loans to cover the full cost of their training provided by the government (VET FEE-HELP)?

or

Should students get stuff all from the government like they have for the last x many years (sweet f/a aka. status quo)

My vote would be preferably option 2, however option 3 still works and I can see a valid argument for option 1 when it is in association with a Bachelor of Aviation.

Regardless it makes piss all difference to me as I was able to get an interest free loan from parents many moons ago which is now paid off in full (+ some interest I thought they deserved for putting up with me for all those years).

i'm outta here

A student loan type scheme to help out aviation students is very much a double edged sword. They have full funding for flight training in NZ and it means those who are limited by $$$ can still do what they dream of. However it also means that a lot of non committed people get in there and decide one day that it would be cool to wear a pretty uniform and be a pilot. So you get flight schools full of people that are never going to make it in aviation clocking up huge loans for no gain. A couple of long haired, pierced to hell guys dressed like hippies trying to do their CPL chopper licence i met come to mind here.
Another problem is that when these guys get out of flight school, with only 170-200 hours or whatever, they owe $45000 and their first flying job, if they can get one, pays absolutely stuff all. Of course if its a chopper licence, maybe with an instructor rating, we're talking 80-90K!!

While it enables everyone to fly all day every day and learn faster, therefore less hours, I reckon it has the flipside of exposing students to less varied conditions for life outside flight school. I myself took 4 and a half years to do my licence, paying for it as I went at the aeroclub while working as groundcrew and getting exposure to real-deal flying and I beleive it made it a LOT easier to get a job flying when the time came as well as good experience.

Flying costs also tend to rise with a loan scheme. Ask flying students in NZ what the chargeout rate on the 172 they are learning on. Half them have no idea!! They just know they have a $42000 loan. The flying schools see it as a cash cow so take advantage of it. An Ardmore flying school I talked to about 3 years ago were then charging $285 an hour for a 172 dual!! Meanwhile my local Aeroclub was charging $165 an hour in the Archer dual, but because they werent on the student loan scheme, were struggling to get CPL students.

So while it makes it easier to get a licence, the loan scheme just pushes up prices, introduces useless oxygen theives to aviation, and kills the aeroclubs. At the end of the day tho, what is the best solution for such a pricey occupation?

eclan,
mate i'm confused by your last post.
does that mean that all students who use the hecs scheme are mediocre?

i'm not sure now if i want to go to the doc's or use a bridge built by an engineer who used hecs to go through uni.all these mediocre students getting degrees at uni,god save us.
life is full of people who weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth and might/would do a lot better than some who were lucky to have a rich daddy.

if properly administered a hecs or hecs similar scheme would give the chance to many who otherwise would not be able to live their dream and that does not mean their performance or abilities have to be mediocre.

the difference would be in the selection process just like it is in any interview for any profession.

Messiah

One of Goofs fantastic ideas
Only problem is the recent experience requirements to qualify for that one precluded anyone but cropdusters :hmm: