Instructors with attitude problems
 

Has anyone ever had an instructor that would always yell at you, make you feel stupid and basically rubbish everything you did in the cockpit. Up until recently the instructors I've had, have all been patient and willing to teach you the skills you need to improve. But with this instructor it feels the more he complains the worst my flying gets. It makes me question my ability to be a pilot!

Am I the only one with this problem?

Yeah, I had an instructor during my early training who, if he wasn't yelling at me for something, was experiencing some sort of "air rage" toward other aircraft in the circuit, for minor inconveniences such as (shock, horror! :eek:) finishing their runups faster and making it to the holding point first! Strange fellow..... think it might have been 'roid related somehow, given the amount of time said individual spent in the gym! Anyway, he's been moved on to a desk job now! :{

The Baffler :ok:

No you are NOT the only one who has had or will have this situation.

As a wide body capt under training, was told that the questions I was occasionally asking "indicated a lack of knowledge". YOU THINK!!!!

As the apparent shortage of Instructors/Pilots gets to bite, many people who shouldn't do instructing will be in those positions, as they have in small numbers always been there.

Most good instructors are actally "born", some may be trained if they have the basic stuff, the rest actually struggle at the task with mixed results.

Some instructors can only teach by "checking" as they have a false sense of the standard, some who cannot reach that standard themselves, and provide only negative comments in the false premise that that will encourage the improvement in the student. The shouters and hitters, YES HITTERS, out there should be removed from the gene pool ASAP

Instructing is like building a brick wall, one "brick" at a time, fully supported by the prvious "brick" and always reviewed at the end of the lesson as to progress, skill development and future expectations in the process.

I have been privilaged to be an Instructor over many years in all classes of Aircraft, now mostly in the Simulator area and the situation you describe is not unique even in our so called "top of the pile", it has to be monitored and eliminated if at all possible by suitable supervision, sadly not always available

Change your Instructor at the very least, or the school if it is necessary and find someonewho will put enjoymentinto the learning process.

Cheers

Greybeard

Don't let that sort of behaviour influence you at all -it tells you far more about that 'instructors' insecurity and personality issues than it will ever tell you about your own flying ability.

Many years ago I used to have an instructor that was very liberal with the use of the fuel-stick across the knuckles in acknowledgement of any errors on my behalf -usually failing to deselect carb air on short finals... it wasn't unusual to come away from a 30 minute lesson with swollen, painful knuckles on the right hand. Until the day on very short finals it got too much for me. That swipe of the fuel-stick saw me relinquish the controls, rail my seat fully aft and put me feet up on the dash -where his already were! He had to move very quickly indeed. We had a fairly serious -and loud- 'discussion' during the taxi to parking which culminated in my clouting the prick once the aircraft was shut down and secured.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that I recommend handling a similar situation in that manner -I don't. In retrospect I should have handled it completely differently -I certainly would today were it to happen again, but it was a long time ago, we were both considerably younger and sillier. He didn't do it again, I didn't forget carb air again and we went on to become close friends.

In your circumstance, my recommendation is simple: Find another instructor. Don't waste your time with this idiot. It is your money, your time and your training that is being hampered by this fool. It's up to you to make the necessary changes. You obviously have a problem or you would never have posted here. Get it sorted.

This sort of behaviour is, as I see it, an inevitable consequence of the lack of industry experience of the majority of 'instructors' in industry today. Bare 200hr CPL's should not be even considered as candidates for instructor ratings. All too often they lack the experience of life, intra-personal relationships, maturity and even basic aviation experience to consolidate their own training before they are training other candidates. It's not usually necessary to take too many steps onto the tarmac before you find someone willing to give you full benefit of their 'experience' -all 250 hrs of it.

Take the time to look around, find yourself an experienced instructor -often you'll find they're the ones with a little (or a lot) of grey hair, a couple or three full logbooks and an extremely laid back, placid manner. You might have a little bother getting a booking with them -they'll probably have a fairly full roster of students on the go- but persist. It'll be worth it.

Never take unecessary crap from an instructor BUT the onus is also on you to be fully prepared for your lesson. There were times wher I was yelled at by my instructor probably due to him at witts end because all the hard work he put in was not being replicated at my end and the end of my other class mates. I think it is a two edged sword (cant believe Im defending circuit heros:}), put in the time out of the aircraft getting it right and frustration levels in the aircraft will be far less.

Yep

You get a few like that who will do what they can to make you feel inferior. I think many of us have experienced some sort of it. Even if students get things not quite right, I believe it should be dealt with in a polite manner as they will be more receptive to feedback (unless something really needs to be actioned)

However, all you can do it take it on the chin and don't take it personally.

Mate... Take it up with your chief pilot... or chief flying instructor...

I was in EXACTLY your position when I was learning to fly, every time I flew with this individual it almost reduced me to tears. So I went straight to the CFI and voiced my concern... and he said he'd make sure I never flew with that instructor again.

REMEMBER IT'S YOUR MONEY.... that you are spending. Spend it well :ok:

When I flew with that idiot instructor, it also made me question my ability to become a competent pilot.... now I'm flying big shiney jets over the world...

You'll be right :ok:

There are so many instructors out there that fit this bill. I almost failed my UPPL test in '90 because of one of these knobs. You can't accept any unreasonable stick from them because it will effect you're ability to learn, but even worse, your ability to enjoy.

Walrus

I have to agree with the majority of posts here. I don't mind being told I am wrong, or even foolish if that is true, I don't mind the instructor raising his voice slightly to make his point and, if safety is at risk he can shout and take over the aircraft. However he will not get away with insulting me, putting me down, shouting simply because he can't be reasonable or control his temper and, it would not be smart of him to hit me.

If I was sufficiently annoyed by any of his behaviour or I thought that for any reason our relationship was causing my training to suffer, I would be in the CFI's office requesting a new instructor, or down the road at the next school. I'm paying a minimum of $200 bucks an hour for flight training, not for abuse, I can get that free from anywhere.

I do agree with the greybearded one, more mature and experienced instructors are fantastic, if you can get them, and you usually need to book ahead. My current guy is pretty good, although young enough to be my son! He's got a good attitude though and works hard, besides, we get along well.

Scorpion, ditch your instructor and/or your school, and remember this, at some stage during your personal and flying development you'll need to learn to take command of your situation and not let your situation take command of you, certainly your flying career depends on that.

Best of luck with everything mate.

ABX:ok:

I'm relieved to hear that it's not just me. The main down side about ditching my instructor is the delays in my training schedule. I'm gonna have a bit of a talk to him, let him know what I think and if he doesn't change move on to another instructor. I can't afford to have doubts in myself at this stage of my training. Thanks for sharing!

"I don't mind the instructor raising his voice slightly to make his point and ...."

Geez, I think every instructor I have spent any amount of time with has yelled at me some point!

"Hold it off" - "Hold it off" - "HOLD IT OFF" - "HOLD THE F*CKING THING OFF"

"Go 'round" - "Go 'round" - "GO 'ROUND" - "FOR F*CK SAKE WILL YOU GO 'ROUND"

I have even, on the very odd occassion, yelled back, "Would you please just shut-up and let me fly the aeroplane"!

... but they mostly became, and many remain, long term friends.

This is quite different to being constantly put down. Scorpion83, you need to change instructors, if not Schools, pronto!

Dr :8

i think there is a big difference bewteen an instructor who really cares about their students but may not have enough experience to handle all situations with aplomb, and an instructor who does not really care and acts like a goose.

the first group, while obviously not ideal, will learn with time and practice. they should not be denigrated but should be treated like you yourself would like. if you think your instructor is in this group, i suggest a quiet chat will help.

if your instructor is in the second group, ditch them ASAP.

You are Paying
 

Hi Scorpion83 ,
First, you are paying him/her to be in the aircraft to teach you to fly. You are paying him/her!!!!!! You are not paying him/her to be abusive, offensive and insulting. You are paying him/her to teach you, and assist you to improve your flying.

DON”T PUT UP WITH AN INSULTIVE INSTRUCTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Only one time should the voiced be raised in the cockpit. That is in a critical situation. And the voice should not be aimed at you, but rather at the situation that needs immediate attention. ( FUL POWER!! NOSE UP, GO AROUND ) and shrieking should be a last resort!! And that is the only time an instructor should yell. If they bellow in a non-critical situation, then they have a problem, with themselves.

YOU MUST CHANGE INSTRUCTORS

Report the style of teaching to the Chief Pilot and question him/her if it’s the schools typical method of teaching in an aeroplane. The answer will be no, I’m sure.

Otherwise, TELL the instructor, to adjust his teaching technique, to suit your style, if he can’t then erase him from you air classes. You pay him, with your money. Never ever put up with some one that you are not happy in, in any field, if you are paying them!!!!!!!!

FTDK, yeah mate I do agree, it would be 'un-Australian' not to punctuate the conversation with a few f*cking expletives, I don't mind that at all. When its done as a put down I get pissed off. The examples you gave would be no problem to me at all, however if he said, "Hold it off you f*cking idiot" I'd see red.

I suspect that some instructors forget that once they too were green wannabes that didn't always get it right.

Reflection
 

FTDK, I have often thought back on life and realised that a few of the blokes I'd rather have a beer with are also those with whom I have had a blue and then sorted it out.

I notice also, when reading the posts here on proon that although being a professional pilot takes you far away from your mates the friendships seem to last. It is common to see people catching up here in the forums and arranging a time have a drink with old mates.

ABX:ok:

I've also seen a few instances where the hatred lasts even longer!

ABX

The FTDK still talks to me...........I promise I never bent his plane.....:uhoh: Actually I dont think we got past ....A bit more rudder, A bit more rudder:8

He did in one of his briefs say....."Behind that prop is 285 ponies, and not one has equine flu, so plenty of right foot young Jaba!

J:ok:

"Actually I dont think we got past ....A bit more rudder, A bit more rudder:8"

But we were only a bee's dick away from, "Jeeeeez Jaba, PUSH THE RIGHT F*CKING RUDDER PEDAL WILL YA!

Dr :8

Hey Jaba, I don't think I can afford to learn in a FTDK, even if the good Doc was available for lessons!

Yeah, I do get the impression that the FTDK is maintained pretty well... although I'm not sure about the maintenance of its regular driver!:}

In one of my earliest posts on proon I commented something along the lines of "if only Chuck would open a flight school". Perhaps the Doc and Chuck together? Or maybe that would cause too much strain on the local liquor establishments!:E:}:ok:

ABX:ok:

"if only Chuck would open a flight school"

Gawd 'elp us- I can just see it now!Dr :8

knew of one with bad attitude but he landed and got the A/H repaired

*baadddum ching*

I know how you feel, unfortunately these tossers are well represented at all levels of aviation. I've had my share and from what I've heard from other pilots, so have they.

If you make airline, some captains can be the same.

Fortunately these people are in the minority. Most people I've flown with range absolute pleasure to fly with to okay. Sometimes it's a personality thing and a change of instructor works wonders.

You will need to learn to deal with the ***holes though, you find them everywhere. :E

Quote:

---

Chimbu Chuckle's Flying Circus
Learn to fly with a living legend!
We specialise in low (and I do mean low!) flying, beat-ups, and mustering indigenous people!

---

What a cracker, I'd love to see some footage of that stuff!

So true Metro.

"I'd love to see some footage of that stuff!"

Try this:

http://www.fototime.com/69FC8CA346C59AC/conv.wmv

Dr :8

Looks like the eastern side of Fraser island to me.

So, who is this idiot?

Counting myself lucky after reading this.

Got through CPL and Instrument Rating, and never once was yelled at.

My biggest problem was every instructor I had seemed to suffer air-sickness. They always got out pale, sweating, and shaking, and often were never seen at the airport again? :sad:

Now that is low Doc!

Where?
When?
Who?

I'll be surprised if I get any answers!

Thanks for the vid.

Cheers,

ABX:ok:

Where?
When?
Who?

ABX - You know how it goes! If I tell you I'll have to hunt you down and kill you!

Dr :8

I had an instructor for my CIR who should never have been in the business. You are sure to start off on the wrong foot every time and it's difficult to learn in such an environment.

I quickly changed instructor (and FS) to a guy whose motto was " If you tell them they'll listen, and if you show them they'll learn".

Totally different approach, with far better outcome. I went from nervous and apprehensive to relaxed and looking forward to the next lesson.

As long as you hunt me down and drown me in a bottle of good red wine I'll go out happy... as for hunting me down you probably already have a pretty dang good idea where I live!

In fact if you bring a good Merlot and a good Shiraz I'll PM you my blurry address!:}:ok:

This guy is not an instructor, he may have completed his 50 hrs FIR and paid his money and has been signed off, but he is certainly not an instructor in the true sense of the word. How many have honestly not cut the grade for a grade 3? usually only under CASA FOI tests.On the other side of the coin you will find the crabby old instructor who may be better off not in the industry any longer either.
Anyone who yells or shouts at students should have a lesson/s in instructor/student relations and seek help. In all my years as a CFI i came across many many students who suffered at the hands of these incompetent imbeciles. If a students workload is so high as to warrant an instruction through a raised voice, that student may be nearing saturation point (doesn't hear) and perhaps the Instructor should "take control of the situation". You can load a guy up under a little pressure and he will still hear you and reply to questions and small talk, increase the pressure slowly and he takes a little longer to respond, until the guys workload is so high you could tell him you are bonking his missus and he still won't hear you......maxed out.......his brain can no longer handle the workload. If the guy is really goofing up, yelling at him won't help, so go back to INSTRUCTION etc etc etc.

I have long held the view the way we employ/ train instructors in Australia needs a total re vamp. The problem is instructing is seen as a way to get hours fast so a budding commercial pilot can move up the ladder to regionals etc, then to airlines. This ofcourse means we end up with the least experianced teaching the non experianced. I cannot think of any other industry that does that. Certainly not surface transport driving instructors let alone trades and proffessions. Imagine a newly trained tradesman or train driver training an apprentice how to do something he/she is only just coming to terms with. It is simply not allowed unless you first have suffiecent on the job experiance.
I believe it is long overdue the system allowed experianced private pilots to instruct certainly Ab initio in a club inviroment just like the Gliding fraternity do without the onerous cost of first getting a CPL just so they can volunteer their services on weekends etc. And yes they would need some training in the art of instructing so all are on the same page as do the gliding clubs. This would also keep costs down and provide a far better instructor as he /she would be doing it for the love of flying and with the benifit of years of experiance unlike the present system with snotty nosed kids main aim of looking to move up the aviation ladder

Well said PA39, it is just basic 'people skills' you are talking about. Nor is it rocket science to treat people the way you would like to be treated yourself.

Bring a good red!!!!!
 

If he does he's probably pinched it from his brudder !

And the yelling instructor was prob. the famous "cranky old c***" at YBAF,who told me one day in the 80's after CIFR training that when he raised his voice he wasn't angry ,just trying to make a point!

I said "that's OK N***....it's like going to church....it might give you the ****s....but occasionally you get something out of it!

Then we 'd go to the bar at RACQ and you'd pick up a few clues about aviation that's not in the text books.

Flopt

I pre-emt this by first saying that I have had some of what I believe to be the best instructors, but when I was working in the Kimberley or FNQ, the following was widely agreed:

Not all instructors are w@#kers, but all w@#ankers that you meet in flying are or have generally been instructors;)

Anyway, agree with most posts here, everyone learns differently, the right instructor for you is one who you respect enough to put the work in for, trust enough to ask the silly (lifesaving!) questions, and who allows you to progress at the best of your potential in the shortest possible time (money!).

Otherwise, vote with your wallet and piss 'em off!

Forgetabowdit

When I went through USAF Pilot training years ago "Fear, Sarcasm and Ridicule" was the standard instructional technique. Going through pilot training was treated like a right of passage. You just had to suirvive the haze. Over 60% of my class washed out. Now after 3000 hours of AF IP time I am proud to say I have never used that method. At least I learned something...

mostlytossas, I would venture that if the PPL pilot is as experienced as you say they are, they would easily meet the requirements for a CPL anyway, just a quick dual check or two and a flight test, as well as a few exams. Then, the training on how to instruct could come from, well, the instructor rating.

The problem with the current system is not that young "snotty nosed" people are instructing, it's that experienced pilots are not. Whether that's because there's not enough incentive for them to come back to GA, or they're just not willing to give up the jet job, it's irrelevant. There are not enough experienced instructors. Regardless of what you think of grade IIIs, they are not the problem. Indeed, if all the "snot noses" quit tomorrow, a high number of schools would have to close down, as they would have not only no experienced instructors, but no instructors at all.

Arrrr

I have to admit, we found the same thing to be true. :}
Generally these people are what you'd label, "circuit heros" and not true instructors. We found there was a difference!

CCT hero`s lol thats gold...:)

In the short time i`ve been flying i`ve had a few different instructors but I was never yelled at once during my cpl course, but my main ifr instructor was a total dead****, it came to the point where I thought i was unable to fly ifr, and was so nervous and uncomfortable that I dreaded the thought of each "lesson"... and performed poorly when i was with him. Needless to say i should`ve told him where to go. Whilst being aware of your own limitations, confidence in your own ablities is everying in flying safely, and yelling and carrying on like a schoolgirl does nothing for a student. I would reach over and pull out his headset jacks everytime he says anything that discourages you :)

Capt Arr,
You missed my point, I am not against snotty nosed kid instructors per see as they have to learn somewhere but I think there is a great wealth of talent out there un tapped that would make very good instructors if they did not have to pay out 1,000's dollars doing the CPL first. It is not a matter of just a dual check and an exam. You tell me who would be better at instructing the basics, a retiring Tafe teacher,LAME, tradesman, other teacher etc with 40yrs instructing in their given fields or the current system. Sure they would need a certain amount of flying experiance be it 1000hrs,500hrs whatever the powers that be decide first ,but after that why would anyone volunteer to do it at a club level if they had to spend there own money to get the CPL? Does this suddenly make you all knowledgeable? Afterall flying is not rocket science and at private level the theory can be all done in a couple of weeks, the maths is basic, and the entire exercise up to PPL providing the student has the funds can be done in well under 1year. Try learning a trade, even a basic one like bricklaying that quick let alone electrical, refrigeration, telecomunications etc.
My point is a tradesman,LAME, etc who has flown all over the country on jobs or for pleasure with say 1000 hrs is likely going to be a far better instructor and more experianced than someone with 10000hrs just doing circuits or in the training area. To prove my point you may remember the instructor who crashed a Baron ( I think) near Canberra enroute to the snow from Bankstown some 15yrs ago due to not allowing for the COG movement with the fuel burn off. He was on paper an experianced instructor with heaps of hours. When BASI looked into the matter it was found nearly all of his flying was done in single engine training aircraft in the circuit or training area.
Flying is not hard, in fact I believe easier than learning to drive merely because you have not got the amount of other traffic coming at you from all directions along with mixed speed zones and road conditions etc.
What flying does not allow is getting away with major errors.
Why not tap into the nations true wealth of knowledge,rather than pretend flying is something it is not, and reduce further these man made errors.