V Australia-Tell me it aint true! (Merged Thread)
 

Please let me be wrong!!!!!!!!
Anyone in the know that the new 777 training manager for this operation has just paid for his own endorsement?:D:D:ugh:
After how many years at VB?????
Secondly, are the yarpies liking the sound of a command for $156000.

Ya, I must tell you, it is all true. Will they now be know as Varpies?

Don

What's the chance it's a cunning ploy.

One of the bosses pays for the endorsement, thereby setting the stage for all others to have to follow suit. If he hadn't paid for it then there might be a case for others not to have to pay.

Is it possible he is getting ex gratia payments to cover his "expenses"?

I suspect some will think this is a Jetblast topic, but when I look at the reporting on the current pilot shortage in Australia, V Australia offering 156K (or is it 168K? – whatever; both are a bloody insult) for a wide body international captain AND see the thread that the Virgin Training Manager is paying for his own endorsement onto the 777, I can’t help but feel – very strongly – that it’s very much an Australian Aviation topic.
This from the man who oversaw and gloried in the destruction of unionised labour in the Aviation industry eighteen years ago at the bidding of a “mate”? Incredibly, the vast majority of Australians – and the Australian media - have such a short memory that no one puts the question to Hawke to ask him why unionism is such a good thing now, when he, the ex leader of the ACTU, forced pilots to enter into individual contracts (shades of ‘Work Choices’) and would not allow pilots to be represented by their union.
Look no further that this sorry excuse for a man if you want to lay the blame for the current sorry state of affairs in our industry.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I thought the Training Manager was a new guy...not from within VB ranks? If it is true that he has paid for a rating..then am I to conclude there was not ONE Australian with 777 experience that wanted or was deemed suitable for the job?:confused:

Either that, or they went down the seniority list untill they found someone so desperate for a managerial position, that they willingly "bent over" to become part of the club!

Actually, just kidding. It is more probable that the job went to a qualified outsider. But one has to ask. If it did go to a qualified outsider, why the need to buy an endorsement in the first place? One would think that if DJ were to go down that path, extensive 777 experience would be a requirement? So many questions????

Then again.... see paragraph 1?

You a right Krusty..everytime a question is answered it creates more questions..it will be interesting to get all the FACTS laid out.

Spad, I could not agree more.:D

OR, it could be a wind-up??

Ever thought of that?

Spad.

Why is....

:confused:

Three times the median national wage and comparable to salaries paid for similar positions in other developed countries......

Air Ace, was this a typo did you mean underdeveloped countries, if not to which countries other than Aus/NZ are you referring? :confused:

Err which developed country pays a 777 Captain A$160 000? US176 000?

Easy Jet/RyanAir pay their 737 captains more than that!

Any airline in the USA would pay more for a 777 captain!!

While it's a alot of money in anyone's language Australian pilots do tend to be on the lower end of the scale.

However you do have to consider cost of living, Forex and tax in the equation which makes it an impossible thing to compare country to country

Air Ace, I'd be guessing he means as opposed to what almost every other 777 operator pays its captains.

There are quite a few people over here in the Sandpit who've expressed an interest in either going home, (or, in the case of the South Africans and Zims here, establishing a home for themselves in Godzone through the V Australia job), but I suspect that very few of them, after doing their sums, and particularly if they have school-aged children, will find they are willing to suffer such a large pay cut just to come to Australia.

(However, if the USD continues to go down the gurgler at its current rate, $A168,000 might start to look half way do-able!)

Nev, I think you mean A$160 000 US148 000

No, I don't believe it either!!

Now Spad,

The former National Secretary of WHICH industrial organisation was instrumental in setting up the company offering this insult?:bored:

Aussies in V Australia
 

These guys are going to have to be real careful they don't end up with a SAFA mafia running the show, as is the case in some other companies. If V Australia hires to many more south africans into management the VB Capt's that transfer over may end up being the only Aussies working for V Australia.
It's more than a little suspect that the Dir of Op's and now the Training manager are both SAFA's, and neither has any experiance on type.
I know for sure that one of the other guys that applied for the position was the 777 training manager at EK for 5 years, with 12 years Chk and Tng on type, AND AN AUSSIE!!!!
It's dishearting as an Aussie pilot working over seas to see Aussie airlines would rather try and find cheap overseas pilots, rather than pay a little extra to try and enchourage some of the experianced aussie pilots overseas to come home. Virgin were only too keen to reduce the 737 salary by 20% for guys going onto the jungle jets because it's a smaller plane. What a surprise that they're now not willing to apply the same logic to salaries when it's going the other way.
Looks like it will be a long time before I will be able to afford to take a job back in Australia!

The wait continues,

Monster.

ahhh...MonsterC01,

The answer was right in front of me...

Cheap, O'seas labour! how else could you explain a training manager with no experience on type!!!

That's if it is true of course? :sad:

I think you will find the chap is a Technical Manager, not training. His agreement with V Australia would be anyones guess, but I'm sure he will not be out of pocket. Salaries for the domestic VB Fleet Captains start at a base of $170k so the cash for a B777 will not be less than that surely? If it is you are quite right, who in hell would want it.

I still find it interesting that most of the guys up top in VB are ex 89 and are the guys making these decisions, ie Pay for type rating and work for less than going rate.


But as usual there are guys lining upto to work for thses T & C. :ugh:

Where exactly are these supposed T&Cs published? As usual not much fact and all speculation is running rife. Anything less than 220K and there will be not many takers but that is speculation not fact.
Also currently there are only two management captains from the 89 era all of the rest had nothing to do with it so you can throw that one out the door as a conspiracy theory.

Correct.Australian pilots do tend to always getting the ****e end of the stick.

Yes
 

Australian pilots historically have failed to do research, and have trained in droves for a few available jobs. They did it to GA, and now they are doing it to airlines.
The end result is a chronic oversupply, and erosion of salaries, starting before 89.
Will it turn around? It hasn't yet. The demand has increased, but the erosion seems to be continuing, and it seems there are still surplus pilots. Just not as many as they are used to. Some fixes are in place and more are gearing up.
The pilot group are still speculating. I see no solid research into future supply and demand.

I know V Australia knocked this bloke back in favour of the (non rated?) South African. The South African must be one seriously well qualified and incredibly talented man to have been found to be a better option than the Australian they knocked back... or cheaper.

I have to agree with the rather jaded comments others have already made that I think we can all expect to be hearing quite a few exotic, if southern hemisphere accents from VOz aircraft and will all have to get used to hearing "Itzapleaaassssure" over the radio.

Why so surprised? There has been no shortage of posts explaining this very fact of life here on prune.

There is NO shortage of cheap overseas labour willing to come and do what you guys think you will soon be paid more to do.

VOz will be a yarpy flying club soon where they toast each other, disassembled rape-cages and the dumb aussies whom they one-upped.

Simply unbelievable. Pilots should be renamed (or is that named) whores for a better discription of the profession.
Supply and demand, shortage blah, blah, blah.
When will the penny finally drop with some blokes?

So **** off to EZY or FR and live in Bishops Stortford on about UKL 85K:hmm:

With reference to the Ryanair/european ops and the pay they offer- I think "DJ737" you may have missed the point.

The point being what chance do "V Australia" have to attract 777 Captains when the Virgin group cannot pay their 737 Captains what they are worth on the world stage, lets face it VOz are appealing to the world market to supply them with Captains for the 777 Ops.
Compounding this, who would pay for a type rating to fly for this mob(V Oz) when the parent Co(V.B) are doing so well.

New recruits to VB were told 2000/2001 they had to pay for their own 737 rating as they were a start up Co and did not have the resources or the money to pay for new employees ratings, that is not the case now.
It is as obvious as the nose on my face, if the Virgin group wish to start a succesful international operation they need do do things properly.

Not the usual half arsed,cheap as chips approach we are all used to.

Case in point is the debacle of new drivers for the E-Jet. The Co could not even pay them enough allowances to cover their cost of living whilst O.S etc,etc,etc

So why did they agree to go?

Because they naively thought the company would do the right thing.
The only thing worth remembering, "If it aint in writin,it aint gonna happen"!

Adjusted for inflation, the 150K mark is about right.

In 01 John's Merry Men repatriated to Oz and were payed 100K as Virgin Blue training captains. Actually, I don't even think they were on retainers whilst the AOC was delayed.

So, an aviation cycle on, and Virgin is paying training captains less than the F/O's of the incumbent competition ( QF ).

Trailer trash......... :)

Anyone know how a tripler Er will go LAX-MEL if MEL requires an Alternate, with the proposed VB configuration:confused:

Will it do it easily?

Hi all,

Well, I know of a quite a number of Boeing Captains in South Africa that earn less than Aus$100k/year.

Combine that with conditions in their country, and you'll find that there are many that will jump at this job.

They are busy doing the ATPL conversion and will be sharing cost for the 777 sim.
Come interview time, these guys will be licensed and rated.

Back to the man who's running the training at VA, yes he IS that capable and good. One of the best in the business.

Amazing, I don't hear any complaints about all the SAFA Doctors, nurses, engineers, vets etc. etc. keeping good old Oz running. Now you're complaining about pilots!

Happy to be corrected and certainly aware we are more liberal than most countries but don't persons who wish to reside in Oz STILL have to apply, be processed and eventuall approved (or not)???

All the talk here makes it sound like anyone will be allowed to stroll in with no questions asked.

On another topic like it or not Placido is 100% right - if people perceive it as an improvement/step up they will move countries and take positions.
You only have to look at the contract world to see that in the last few years the South Americans are greater in numbers as well as other nationalities.

It would appear that, in the case of V international it will be the Yarpies who will benefit (subject to regulatory approval!) :suspect:

Of course for the Yarpies it will be like a nice lottle win on the pokies; V International, in keeping the salaries soooooo low, will literally have won the mega draw in tattslotto. :*

Gotta hand it to VB management - whether by good management or plain old dumb luck, with the pilots agreement over the line by 3% and now possibly (probably?) driving down the pilot salaries for V Int. they are doing very nicely thank you very much.
However I have no doubt it is really the "duck" syndrome - on the surface all calm, below the surface paddling like buggery! :p

I disagrree with the wisdom of VB management should they take the path of payling appalling salaries.

Right now they are deeply distressed about being able to man VB flights, due to the aircrew shortage and attrition.

This was all brought about because they insisted on such cheapness in the operation (from pilots paying for their own ratings to paying well below QF salaries). Whilst some were just happy to be 'home' this quickly subsided into a simmering resentment. Now pilots leave for Emirates etc at a quickening pace. That carriers' recent orders for so many new aircraft will not help VB's situation.

So if they do pay peanuts and insist on type-ratings or sub A$250k salaries for Captains, they may make it work initially but will just be creating another longer-term disater for themselves.

I hope they are sensible this time round - time will tell.

Placido
 

No one on this thread is denying that the pilots that would come from south africa are experianced and capable operators. I fly with a number of SAFA pilots at my current company and their all good guys with a lot of knowledge and skill. My point is simply Australia is surpose to be a country of well developed industrial policies and laws geared towards maintaining a resonable balance between capital and labour. No one can deny that in recent years that balance has unashamedly been allowed to favour Australian companies and their agendas. It isn't right or fair that these companies that still enjoy the protections offered by these policies should be allowed to circumvent them when they don't work in their favour.
It wasn't that long ago that Qantas cried all the way to the government and the ACCC when Emirates and Singapore Airlines applied for the right to carry passengers on the Kangaroo route. they claimed it was unfair on Australian operators to have to compete against overseas carriers, as they had to pay Australian workers in accordance with Australian Awards, and these overseas carriers wouldn't (even thou these overseas carriers offer better pay and benifits than Ozzy operators do). Now these same Australian companies want to deny Ozzy pilots the same consideration and protection they enjoy by being allowed to bring in cheaper overseas pilots to crew their aircraft without any oversight from unions, the ACCC or the government.
We allow SAFA doctors, engineers and nurses into australia as there is a genuine shortage of skilled labour in these fields, even after the government and private sector increased pay and working conditions, even offering government grants for people to attend university. This is not the case in the aviation sector. We have more than enough Australian pilots to fill all of the current vacancies, the differance here is that now most ozzy pilots want to be resonable compensated to do so. If Voz were to offer a competitive package of T & C for 777 pilots today, i have no doubt that they would have 1 000+ applications from ozzy pilots with heavy jet experiance tomorrow. But they don't want to, even though they can afford to. Australian Airlines are amongst some of the most profitable airlines in the world. The problem is they wont to continue on with business as usual at the expense of the people who make it happen.
The Australian government should only allow an Australian company to bring in overseas labour when that company can clearly demonstraight that they are unable to fill those positions with australian citizans, even after offering a competitive industry standard wage. This is not the case here. Here Voz want to import foreign labour to avoid paying an acceptable industry standard wage.
So placido, while your point is valid, it has no bearing on the issue this tread seeks to address. As i know for a fact if the tables were turned, there is no way on god's green earth that the SA government would ever let Aussie expat pilots come over to Africa and take South African jobs.
All Ozzy pilots are asking of Voz is to allow the door to swing both ways.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

Monster.

Monster, bloody well said ol' chap. :D

With the industry in its current condition we as pilots are in a strong position to negotiate terms.

Don't accept crappy pay-for-type offers.

The terms will go up, or planes will park up. If they manage to somehow recruit cheap overseas labour, then :mad: em. We'll go overseas also, to where airlines are directly competing against eachother for the BEST crew, not the cheapest. And these aussie operators will begin to get the dodgy reputation they will deserve.

Apply to VAus, select No to answer the question re: paying for endorsement. The more of us that do this the better.

Rock this boat we will.

Buddha

Not wrong monster - sought employment years ago in Sith Effrica (early 90's) not a chance as an Oz passort holder - unless I could do something that no other South African could do.

Fortunately being Aussie there are a great number of things I can do that they can't :E
But that's not the point

What? Like play rugby? :ouch: :E

Well, you are all where you are today because of 89'.

So you know who to blame, don't you?

And you also know what to do to correct the situation, don't you?

But you wont do it, will you? :hmm:

What developed countries Air Ace? Indonesia, India, China? OK, got it.

Well then!
 

:8 Well, one thing about the SA drivers, they sure know how to get on the p1ss - just before they get on the ship with wings. Seen that a few times. :O