Commercial Aviation Pay Rates
 

Having just returned from Redbull in Perth after staying with some friends I found it interesting to compare aviation pay rates with mining jobs in WA (admittedly from the resources boom). I was told a job was recently advertised for a kitchen hand (not a cook) for 10 days on, 5 off for $100,000, and plumbers and electricians on similar rotations are being payed $200,000.

Taking Qantas pay rates out of the discussion, as long term they may be a thing of the past, it seems about $140,000 is the top rate for a Capt, with most commercial pilots earning well below $100,000.

I am interested in the motivation of new pilots coming into an industry where they must spend at a bare minimum $40,000 of their own money on training to obtain a level of skill, discipline and responsibility, in my opinion, equivalent to a doctor, to then be payed at the current level. Comparing RFDS pilots pay to the doctor and flight nurse in the back I find simply astounding.

I understand this is driven primarily by supply and demand, but what is driving the oversupply?

I thought GA pay, was Johnny Howard's idea of "work for the dole" put into practice! :eek:

Schnitzel appears to pay the bills however! Life's not much fun without those being paid.

Here you go, cook schnitzels for 10 days, then on your days off fly planes for fun :ok:
I always though it was funny that the lowest paid person on a mine is the pilot.

I would be very suprised if a minesite kitchen hand was on 100k a year. They are normally employed by the minesite catering mob who aren't known for their overly generous salary packages.

Having said that, there would be no doubt that they would be earning more than the Bras Captains who fly them in and out.:sad:

It certainly is a sad state of affairs but we may be turning the corner.

A plumber and electrician earning 200K? I know the money's good, but it ain't that good! Reality check please.

Front page of one of the local papers last week. Brickies in Brissy making $1200 A DAY.

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Ummm........apparently yes it is that good. Good luck to them. I love seeing people get ahead. :ok:

Turboman: It is indeed anomalous that of the common professions, that of "pilot" is one of the few where the newcomer must pay the full cost of their training! However, that's a different debate.

Let's keep things in perspective here!

CPL/MEIR takes 12 months taining and what, $40,000 ?

That would take care of only 1 of the minimum of 6 years of full-time/full-fee medical training.

R:cool:

Suggest you work in a mine for a few years, as a labourer/offsider.

The money will be handy for your licenses, and you will quickly figure out that it's too hard a job, and will easily settle into the cushy life of a hard working pilot.

Mining V's Flying
 

Hey,
Runaway Gun ,
I've been a coal miner and a GA commercial pilot and mining wins hands down.
Pays good , I don't have to buy my job , It's safer , the equipment is less than 5 years old , professionaly run , more job security , and there's no one trying to pinch your job by working for less.
And most of all , your not surrounded by people who are "passionate about flying".

Another reality check:

Most Brickies get really good dough but not that good. Some Brickies generally get paid linked to performance. i.e. - so many bricks etc.

These are the guys who make hay while the long Brisbane Summer Sun shines.

- also makes up for the days off due to rain, short winter days or other subbies/supplier stuff ups etc. or when there are half-days due odd jobs/small jobs.

Supply and Demand - Try getting a concrete slab laid, fitter or carpenter in under three months on the East-Coast!.

Living in the North-West for the past few years, the salaries quoted wouldn't be far off the mark.

but when you have to pay upward of $700 a week in rent you want to be getting the big bucks (or a company house).

You do have to have a good hard look when a cleaner is earning twice your salary with more time off.

It is definitely a sad indictment of the industry. I can get $120k PA to drive a brand new truck for 10days on 7days off, and more if I decide to go back to my trade (heavy duty fitter), and yet when chatting with some management types in the aviation industry recently about a job was informed my +8000 Hrs and all the ratings and endorsements are worth about $35k.
If I wasn't working for myself in the aviation industry, i doubt I would be in it at all. I'm glad i pay myself a bit better than the industry standard.

I live in a fairly large town on the coast of Queensland. Whilst as an ATC i get a reasonable salary, it's nothing compared to what people working in the mines 1 hour to the west of us earn. Most are on $100k plus. Sparkys etc well over $200k ... Makes my $80k pale into insignificance. :eek: You try buying a house in this town for under $300k. not gonna happen.:ugh:

The the wonderful ASA mangers say we get paid too much :confused: Gimme a friggin break. These clowns here can't add 2 numbers together and have zero responsibility, yet get paid double what i earn..:hmm:

Life on a mine isn't for everyone, but a youngster with a trade going in to mining in his early 20s will probably be able to look at a comfortable retirement around the age of 40 if he's sensible with his money.

Compare that with the cost of a licence and endorsements and the financial penalty of years of low pay jobs until, you make left seat on an airliner and start earning respectable money. VERY big if as the odds are against it.

I would be way ahead money wise had I become a plumber. Over the next 20 years until I retire I will be playing catch up and possibly come out ahead compared to school mates who got decent trades. Assuming I can still pass all the medicals and sim checks :(

But some of the flight attendants are gorgeous, my work place is airconditioned and I don't get my hands dirty so there are advantages if you do make airline :)

Welcome to the real world of labour supply and demand!!!

The Mine Site employee you mentioned on 10 Days On - 5 Days Off works 2,433 hours per annum for his salary. Did you compare that to the pilot's 700 to 800 stick hours per annum?

And after a four year, very low paid apprenticeship and 24 weeks in College, why shouldn't the electrician be highly paid??? :confused:

To each his own. No doubt a miner could afford to pay for a Commercial Pilot License and a Pilot could obtain work on a mine site.

It's all a matter of personal choice.

Who said aviation or life is fair!!!

Aussie

I really enjoyed flying around while I was training. Now in the real world, living in a hole of a town, working 12-14 hour days, putting up with BullS**T from the owner of the company, knowing that you could be fired for the silliest things & getting paid less than when I was stacking shelfs in a supermarket have really opened my eyes. The flying is good, but thats where it all ends. I dont want to sound negative, but knowing what I know now, I seriously doubt I would get involved in aviation as a commercial pilot.:(
The reality of the situation is that pilots have always been treated badly - it started after WW2, then decades after pilots finally got some good pay and conditions & then it all fell apart in the pilots dispute in '89. I dont see things improving anytime soon (just look at the pay that virgin and jet* drivers are on).:{
LeMeL:ok:

Actually I took a pay cut in my first commercial gig from a rather lavish lifestyle on Johnny Howards surfing team:ugh:

Poor buggers
 

Didn't the flying schools tell you how terrible these flying jobs are when you went there to spend all that money for training?

I don’t think the flying schools tell people how it really is. If they did very few people would learn to fly.

You have to look at the big picture. A 21 year old tradesman on 150k a year not only makes 110k more than a GA pilot a year but INVESTS 110k more a year. A am not an accountant but a fool can see that the compound interest over the 20 years it takes the GA pilot to make anywhere near 150k a year is astronomical. A couple of my mates started working trades at the same time I started flying. They were a bit envious at the time but not any more. The houses they bought alone have increased in value by more than I have earned in TOTAL since then. That income is ON TOP of their salaries!

I enjoy my job but I will admit that it was not a very clever career move.

what 21 year old tradesman is on $75 an hour?

All of them in my part of the world. In fact, my eldest son is just 19 and is on about the same money I am at the moment, and I'm on better than normal GA wages.

Certainly very well paid pilots in Australian GA. Especially when you compare those rates with captains in the Republic of Kiribati - Central Pacific, who fly the twin engine turbo-prop Harbin Y12 with two crew and 17 passengers, for the princely wages of $100 Australian dollars a week. And in case you think the figures are wrong - I say again...100 bucks a WEEK. Tax is taken out of that.

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I agree with Mr Stanley, go out and get a trade. Maybe on the week-ends do a bit of training and then have the best of both worlds. In the end you have options when/where you go looking for that first job to fall back on. And who knows after you finish your trade you may well decide aviation is not for you.

The reason GA wages are so poor is because of flying schools which churn out commercial licence holders like a sausage factory. As a result there is a massive oversupply of low hour commercial pilots and the wages reflect that.

If these schools were more honest with prospective commercial students, they would have a huge downturn in CPL training, so as a result they will say anything to get people to part with their money.

A simple case of supply exceeding demand.

I believe all new commercial students should have to read and sign a declaration upon enrollment which states they are aware of the wages and poor employment prospects on completion.:ok:

Its purely a case of "false advertising" by many flight schools, just to get people in the door.

Spend $50k and be flying a jet in a year earning over $150k/year...sounds too good to be true, wonder why the investment companies are not sending people through as well? Why do property when you can returm 100k/yr just sitting down pressing some buttons and getting paid to travel the world!

Blowing smoke up the poor kids ar$es i say, false hopes....

All of these comments certainly make me feel really really happy re: my direction and goals in the aviation industry, and back up what I was already thinking and what many a person has said to me, pilot or not. :ok:

And why should a flying school advertise the bleak chances one may have, upon spending $50K with them? The student should do some research and find out what the industry is like, there are many, many ill-informed people that have, are currently or are about to start the 18 month hog or however long it is for the fulltime course these days.
Well summed up M.25.

Turboman why would you take out the highest paying end of the aviation industry and then compare the remainder to the highest paid cook, truck drivers and sparkies in Australia?

In every industry there are a small % who earn many times the average of their profession...the average electrician would not last 1 week in the mining industry...you think they pay that money out of the goodness of their hearts?

For those of you bemoaning the aviation industry, fecking GROW UP!!!!

No flying school gauranteed you anything. They merely gave you the training to reach the first rung and the rest is entirely up to you. If you're skilled enough, persistant enough and a little lucky you can reach the top rung and get paid very well...that top rung may not be in Australia. The top rung in Australia has only so much room...and is populated with pilots who were skilled, persistant and lucky, but started years before you. If you are not dedicated enough to seek high rungs where ever they are found, Asia, ME or darkest fecking Africa tough titty...no one cares that you were not dedicated enough so **** off and cry to someone else.:ugh:

If money is all that motivates you I can absolutely gaurantee you of one thing though...you will never be happy because you will not have the dedication and fascination with your chosen career to stick at it long enough to end up good enough to make use of the luck when it crosses your path.

There are only so many positions available at the top of any industry...not everyone makes it to the top...does the average GP get paid the same as a Brain Surgeon, the average singer get paid the same is a top star, the average actor get paid the same as George Clooney, the average lawyer get paid the same as a QC?

The only difference is there is not a Professional Entertainers Rumour Network where the 98% of 'failed' actors/singers can come and bitch in between waiting tables and doing the odd advert/backing track singing they get paid scale for.

The one thing remains true though...successful, happy people love their jobs and would do them as a hobby if they couldn't do them as a job...their dedication and fascination for their jobs takes them to places they never invisaged when they started out...and that might be the top rungs of their profession.

To suggest flying schools should deliberately run down the industry is just rediculous...what person running a business would do that and destroy his business...what % of stary eyed young pilot hopefulls would listen? They would quite correctly assume that CFI was an idiot and take their money elsewhere....the flying school across the road.

How can you be so sure?:hmm:

Chimbu
 

Well said.

Those who are interested only in money have chosen the wrong profession. Sure, the flying schools are churning out masses of pilots and here in nz its not helped by an easy interest free student loan scheme. But in my experience, 80% of the muppets who turn up on day one of the course will not be there after 2 years to prostitute themselves out and steal our jobs. Of those that eventually make their CPL after shagging around and not bothering to turn up to class, most will see the light find it's too hard, grab another student loan and study something else.
Maybe I am exaggerating a little...But my point is it doesn't matter how many sausages the factories make, those who do make it to bigger and better things have had the intestinal fortitude to get there and good on them. They succeed because they WANT to fly. I don't think there will be many that look back on where they started in aviation and not have good memories despite the s**t they had to put up with on the way. If you are still bitter and twisted about how the industry has treated you, I hope i don't have to sit next to you in the cockpit one day and listen to you go on about it.

What, get paid in GA ? That's the funniest thing I've heard yet !
:}

If you want to make money you would be better off taking the $50 000 that a CPL will cost you and buying an investment property or shares. Then get a job in KMART, at the end of five years you will be ahead financially compared to spending the money on a CPL, year off work while you study and the GA wages you will earn in the next four years IF you can get a job.;)

"A 21 year old tradesman on 150k a year ...."


150k A YEAR !?!!, yeah working 3 jobs and 25 hour shifts each day.

21 year old tradesman, who by that age is probably just recently finished his/her apprenticeship is never going to earn that much money. I know, because I've held many and similar jobs in the past and I'm well aware of the pay rates in the industry.

Your friends are just blowin smoke up your a$$.

Her ya go fellas...anyone interested...great career opportunity or what?

$1500 approximately/day NET..varies a little from place to place and on experience...but $1500 is a low average.

Work 12 days a mth/18 days a month off. Shift work involved with the average shift being 7-8 hrs long. You're not paid on days off...or if you prefer to look at it this way you could say $500/day net average.

Accomadation supplied as well as lodgings and per diems when at work.

Excellent working environment with strong OH&S base.

Sunsidised travel opportunities.

2 mths annual leave.

Little experience required to start with and significant on the job training provided by the employer. Starting wage around $1000/day net or $400/day average NET...all other benefits the same.

Other sundry employment benefits vary slightly regionally.

Anyone interested... curious?

Chuck - yep, yer right.

Anyone with the smarts to make it in aviation could get into my 'other' profession and be paid $50K + for their first year of a 3 year training program, come out the other end with a Diploma and make $100k + a year, without leaving Oz.;)

You can also make quite serious bucks flying; just not necessarily instantly when you get outa the training program with a bare CPL:rolleyes: living in your favourite capital city:ugh: .

Its a matter of what you want to do - make a living, or live life.

In that vein - OK, I'll bite - WTF you on about with that job?:confused:

Hey Chuckles, I'm interested but only for the "Sunsidised travel opportunities", it's fecking freezing here this morning:ok:

Expat airline pilot.

Actually I made a mistake...I probably only average 8 days a mth actually working...maybe 9...making the average pay per day probably closer to $2000...it's actually not something I spend much time thinking about.

But it's very nice of the company to fly me from one pissup with mates to another and cover my red wine bill as well...with DTAs.

But don't spread it around...it might be deemed BS propaganda put out by dishonest flying school owners and instructors as a way of duping the gullable to part with hard earned cash which will be completely wasted on flying lessons:ugh: :rolleyes:

Many of the guys I work with were cadets and many of the other expats had nothing but 3000-4000 hrs and some Metro time before buying a type rating and applying...at other places similar experience with time in Dash 8s seems to be popular with the recruiters...ie KA,CX. Hardly what you would consider massive requirements to gain entry...if you're skilled enough and persistant enough and have a little luck.

The average price of a 3 bedroom home in Perth is said to be around $460,000. You would have to be earning at least over $100K just to make repayments, rates, water etc. :bored:

Jimmy,
Those Perth prices have risen that high because of the people in the present boom time earning over $100g a year,and eastern states investors moving in as Perth was cheap before compared to the other cities.
Lack of land put blocks of land up high ,lack of tradesmen put the cost of building up etc.

As for tradesman,yes they are all earning big bucks.The mining companies have trouble getting them now because they can make a big buck in the city ,so why head bush.

Give it a few years and things will change.

WA and QLD are the boom states---------Why-----------mining boom.