Checklists! when, where is there overkill?
 

personally i am a big beliver in checklists!. i am only a ppl, with 500 odd hrs, and own my own aircraft. i regularly fly Piper arrows, archers, as well as the Jabiru and other ultralights. every time i fly any aircraft i will follow the checklists as i have a little pocket notebook with the checklists taken from the flight manuals of all the aircraft i am rated on.

last weekend, i took a trip to Maryborough to visit family, and decided it was a lovely day to fly, so i wandered off to the bundy and hired a Jabiru., now the ajbiru checklist is very short,
radios,transponder off
strobes, lights off
master on
fuel pump on
clear prop.
hit start.
pressures good,
lights on
radios etc on


and off we go.

my point is, before i could hire a jabiru, the CFI desired a checkride circuit before he would let me blast off in his plane, fair enough, but when i pulled my checklist, he got a little upset, and said, "looking at your logbook! why do you need a list for this?""

i replied, if its good enough for a 747 captain!........
he then gave me the whatever look with rolled eyeballs!

my checklist book also has in it emergency procedures as well as the usual inflight lists i dont usually pull the list out for landing checks etc.. only use it for startup, pre take off, and emergency simulating the rest is off by heart,

How often do you use checklist? when dont you use them? why and why not? do you use list like i do out of force of habbit?

be honest!...........

Yeah that CFI probably shouldn't be anywhere near a flight school with an attitude like that. A CFI too! Let him/her know that you don't intend to hire from a school with such lax attitudes towards safety.
Keep using those checklists.

PS I had friends killed ...a contributing factor was the failure to use checklists.

I use list for all sorts of simple airplanes also, and think it is a good idea, but i think some ppl take them too far, ie surely clearing the area around the prop is just good airmanship and not required on a list, sort of like closing the door, do you really need a list that says, door closed? My idea is that they only incorporate the critacal points of flight that history states are commonly left out, eg Fuel Cocks and Contents.

Interested in others thoughts on this?

It's an interesting philosphical question. I would say good on you Ultralights - keep using those printed checklists. As you said, if it's good enough for a 747 crew...

That said, there are times in a single pilot operation when it's simply not appropriate to be reading checklists and this is where pnemonics come in.

In essence, in non-time critical situations, or in a situation where adequate "crew resources" are available to you to monitor the aircraft and the checklist simultaneously I would always use a printed checklist.

In time critical or high workload situations there is scope for the use of pnemonic procedures rather than a written checklist.

Interestingly, airlines have many procedures that are used by crew to configure the aircraft for takeoff and landing that are expected to be known by rote by the crew but only the things that can kill you really easily are on the printed checklist.

Agree that at times a simple mnemonic (note the spelling!) is all that's required. In the not so distant past where I was working as a Glider Tug Pilot the number of launches I had to do and the frequency thereof would have made reference to a printed checklist somewhat impractical. (Most ever was 55 launches in one day)
However, when a printed checklist is available most often it is Company procedure to use it. Actually I think DirectAnywhere said it best in his last paragraph!:ok:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

Isn't it expected by most instructors that you know your checklist of by heart? It saves time fiddling around in the cockpit, which effectively then saves money... Couldn't imagine pulling out a piece of paper and refering to it now that myhead knows it all!

The use of checklist is of course, as the name suggests, to check that you have done everything as needed. But as DirectAnywhere said, there are just times when you can't refer to a checklist for whatever reason, that's when you need, what I call, a "Killers Item" checklist. For instance, a takeoff checklist would only contain: Flaps, Fuel Pump, Trim, Prop Pitch....and whatever is specific to your aircraft that, if not done, would certainly cause you headaches! :D

Personally, I do a flow pattern around the cockpit, then use the mnemonics on taxiing, and the killer items checklist just before takeoff.

Perhaps we need to look at terminology again. Airlines have checklists. One pilot does it and the other checks it. Unfortunately in single pilot operations and in most training we tend to use the 'checklist' as a promt list. Gee, what do I have to do next? Some pilots tend to rely on the promt list too much. "Why did you not turn the radio on?" "It's not on the checklist". The single pilot, or student, should have the list in his/her head and then use the printed list to check he/she has not forgotten anything. The list in the head can then be used to check that he/she has not jumped a few lines on the paper list. That way the paper list can disappear out of reach and the pilot is not lost. It always makes me wonder why commercial pilots are so dumb that they need a paper crutch and PPLs are so smart that they can do without.
I would have thought that a (CASA) flying school would have an Ops manual with checklists approved / accepted / checked by CASA and written procedures for the use of them. I also would not hire an aircraft from a school where the CFI frowns on their use. Did the last pilot do his/her shutdown check correctly?? I do not want to check for nicks in the propeller if it possibly is alive. Did the previous pilot fly the aircraft within its limits or am I going to be the dummy when something fails.

Yeah as I undestand it Europeans do checklists as a "to do" list. ie. one crewmember calls out the check and the other performs it. European checklists are long and exhaustive. The american system is 'flows' and I think this is what is used in oz too I think. Where the procedure is performed first and then at an appropriate time backed up by a checklist when it's convienent to do so.
In any case do checklists.

I prefer my spelling!!

Even if it's wrong.;)

I Fly

"Did the last pilot do his/her shutdown check correctly?? I do not want to check for nicks in the propeller if it possibly is alive."

You don't check the mags yourself prior to touching the prop?

You can NEVER assume that the last guy did anything correctly, even in the best of organisations...............



Snooze :zzz:

Ultralight.
If you feel happy using your check list,carry on.
I am busy poling a LET and today going out of a short bush strip,was busy talking c:mad: to my cojo,that I forgot to put the flaps down on t/o.
Could not understand why the trees looked so big at rotation.
I have 8000 hours and it was a wake up lesson for me to learn.
So forget the rest,do what you know best.
Enjoy your flying.
:E

I find i only use my printed lists for startup, pre take off, and thats about it, sometimes i find myself running through the arrow checklist when im about to fire up the jabiru or Joey.

most other checklists i run through the pneumonic lists, eg, pre landing, as most are similar, the fatals rarely change. oh and the emergency lists.

the instructor might have been a little upset that i decided to hire his jabiru instead of his cessnas, who knows.

tell the CFI get f****d

Stick to your printed checklists Ultralights. I like many, have relied in the past on memory and nowadays on the printed checklist. There are too many aircraft and too many configurations to have to rely on your memory, which has a habit of failing in accordance with Murphy's Law.

You can make it a lot easier by having your checklists readily available and convenient. BTW, if you intend going for a checkride in the US and you don't have a checklist, forget about getting off the ground.

I find TEMPFISCH works a treat, and then FLT as you line up. Im sure you all know it but for those who don't

T - Throttle frictions/trims
E - Engine T/P's
M - Mixture
P - Pitch
F - Flaps/Cowl flaps/Fuel
I - Ignition/Instruments
S - Switches
C - Circuits
H - Hatches/Harnesses

This gets you to the holding point, then as you line up:

F - Flaps/Cowl flaps/Fuel (Re checked)
L - Lights
T - Transponder

This works for me, but im sure there are plenty of other ways

Capt Snooze you asked me " You don't check the mags yourself prior to touching the prop?"
Yes I certainly do. However the day VFR syllabus requires us to do an 'Ignition switch safety check'. You can only do that with the engine running before the previous shutdown. Perhaps I need to be more specific for you. The 'Ignition switch safety check' is for checking that the switches are actually grounding the relevant magneto. If the switch is faulty or the wire to the switch is broken you can look at it as long as you like. You can see it's in the off position and a magneto is still alive. How do you do it? Start the engine first so you can do the 'ignition switch safety check' and then shut it down so you can do the pre flight inspection?

I know some pilots who are so careful that they even use a checklist to start their car. Aeroplanes should not be flown without a checklist to tell you what to do next. Especially on downwind leg you need to read from a written checklist, because that's where you can forget to lower the wheels. If I have a passenger I get him to read the checklist to remind me what comes next as it is easy to forget. I use a checklist for the pre-flight inspection although passengers sometimes give me a funny look when they see me walking around reading from a book. But I know I am safe and that CASA inspectors want you to do that.

Some flying schools insist on long checklists but which costs money to use when the VDO is operating. I guess they have to make their money somehow. The checklists that cover all aircraft types I find the best as they remind me of things I had forgotten.
Why go to all the trouble of remembering switches and things when you can read them from a book I say.

I Fly,


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh....... That's what you were referring to.

It's been a while since I've done a 'dead cut', or any kind of mag check. (Which probably shows :O )

So they've actually put it in the syllabus these days?

I'll say it again though, whether you work with mags or igniters -

You can NEVER assume that the last guy did anything correctly, even in the best of organisations...............




Better make that first prop movement real slow, and stand well clear. ;)





Snooze :zzz:

HSWL

While your conviction on the use of checklists is great, might i suggest another way in which to use your list to further increase saftey, particluary downwind where aircraft can be flying toward you from all sorts of directions.

Why not use the list as a "checking list" rather than a "to do list"; this would mean that you could spend more time looking outside for other aircraft and "watching the road" rather than on the list.

By now after doing your list many times you would be resonably familar with it, so you could do as many items as possible from memory (i reckon you would probably get them all done :O )then use the list to ensure that they have all been completed.

I could be wrong here but i believe this is how most RPT operators use a checklist.

Give it ago, and let me know what you think :ok: :O

Thank you Speeds High

It really bugs me to hear all this talk of configuring an aircraft from a checklist - that is not the way airlines do it, and is less effective than using no list at all.

All essential checks (eg. pre-takeoff DVAs) should be done from memory, without reference to any written material. After these 'memory items' are complete, the relevent checklist is reviewed to confirm the configuration of all essential systems. It is a checklist, not a doinglist.

The CFI in question was quite correct to roll his eyes at you:rolleyes: from the explanation you gave. Your example is nothing like the proceedures used by a 747 crew? In my view, the effectiveness of a proceedure is ranked in this order:
1. Items actioned from memory, backed up by (abreviated) checklist.
2. Items actioned from memory
3. Items actioned from list

I've flown with quite a few Brittish PPLs who would be lost without their 'proceedure lists', in times of high workload they are simply UNSAFE. For those of you complaining that your memory is not up to scratch, perhaps if you used it, you wouldn't loose it.

Ultralights

Unless I missunderstood you you are using a checklist for the walk around preflight?

This is not what airline pilots do...I don't have a written list in my hand while doing the preflight on a 767...I have a torch. I have never used a written checklist to do a walk around ever...well except for my first three flying lessons in the C152 and on the third my instructor took it off me and wouldn't give it back:suspect:

Same thing happened with preflight cockpit set up...then he showed me the geographical method...that has worked on every aeroplane since...including the 767.

I know CASA 'require' written checklists for everybloodything these days but that, IMHO, is just one of the glaring (ar$ecovering) failures of CASA.

Pneumonics such as TEMPFICH, PUFF etc are just as much checklists as written pages and far more valid in most, if not all, GA aircraft.

Checklists are NOT DOlists! A geographic or phase of flight specific scan is followed by the checklist or pneumonic to ensure nothing IMPORTANT has been missed. You should NOT be using a checklist for gear extension as an example. It should happen at a specific part of the approach. I use passing abeam the landing threshold in my Bonanza...ALWAYS...if on a straight in approach the gear goes down at 1500' agl (same in the 767 BTW). The two actions are connected in my mind to such an extent that it's almost impossible to do one and not the other...and on finals a quick PUFF check catches any stuff ups before they become expensive.

You would have a difficult time believing how few checklists we have in Boeings and how short they are. We do entire scans with no checklist backup at all, such as entering the runway/lining up, Transition level passing, after landing. They are all situation specific scans done from (muscle) memory...one pilot does the scan and the other pilot quietly checks it's been done.

We have checklists to ensure things that will kill you (Like flaps, trims) are set properly and they are also backed up by configuration warnings in the EICAS system that will catch any gross, repeated forgotten items.

The only paper, written checklist on the Boeings is one laminated page with several checklists, each of about four to six items, for things like preflight, before engine start, securing etc. These are actioned from memory and then read by one pilot while the other looks to see they are done and responds appropriately. The Boeing pre takeoff checklist has one, yes 1, item...FLAPS...although the airline I work for has shoved a whole 3 more items on it covering cabin ready, departure review etc

Over the years lots of things we allegedly do in the airlines have crept into GA. In almost all cases they have been missunderstood and missapplied.

They are fine ultralights but you might like to approach them a bit differently.

Do the items required from memory, in a flow type arrangement (start top one corner and move across the panel).

When all has been completed, then read the checklist to see if you missed anything and that thye have been done.

If you read the checklist then do one item, read the checklist do the next item, thn it is not only time consuming, it can be dangerous with all that head inside cockpit time, and not noticing the climbing oil temp, handbrake creep, the other cessna coming head on...

Use it to CHECK that all the things have been done.

Concur.
A checklist is a checklist whether or not you use a piece of paper or your memory.
Some of us here are getting confused with the challenge and response type of checklist as used in a multi-crew environemtn and a checklist used for single pilot ops.
The RAAF training system requires all normal (and bold faced emergency) checks be commited to memory, but pilots are also to carry a printed checklist for reference if needed.
I wouldn't have a problem with someone using a printed checklist if they were flying an aircraft they were unfamiliar with. However I would recommend that they take the next step and commit the checks to memory if they planned on using that aircraft type more often.
Sounds like your CFI needs to broaden his/her horizons a little.

i have never used a checklist for walk around and pre flight inspections, i usually use the list for pre startup, and pre take off.
my usual habbit is run throught the list in memory, but with the list in hand. eg, after a few hours in a jab, i will usually run through the list in my head, but if i get into an arrow after the few hrs in another type, i will use the printed list. i also prefer to se the list for pre landing, especially because i fly a nice mix or fixed and retractable gear aircraft. some people have commented on my downwind procedure when in the arrow, i will begin pre landing setup as im over flying the feild, or joining the circuir either crosswind or downwind, i will almost have the gear down as i turn downwind. of course, the jabiru landing checks are a lot simpler, fuel on, brakes off, belts, harnesses, door secure. thats it. no prop, no mixture to worry about, only 1 tank,

Captain Sand Dune
Yes but both should be used as a “checklist”, not a “To Do List. In multi crew and single pilot ops, all items should be done from memory, whether this is by flow pattern or mnemonics doesn’t matter. What ever works best for you. Once they are done and at the correct time a checklist should be called. In a multi crew environment, the PNF will read and the PF will respond. In single pilot ops the pilot will read and respond. When I flew single pilot ops a number of years ago, we use to have flip-flop checklist mounted on top of the panel. They worked very well in that I could keep my eyes outside when it was extremely important to do so and complete the checklist.

Thank you Chuckles and others for saying in clear and concise terms what I meant but in my usual muddled way failed to say, ie a checklist is not a to do list!!
The company for whom I do some occasional work in PA31s has a rather neat laminated A4 sized checklist which is used for that precise purpose.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

Checklist - Big Airline way....

Most are of the physical do the checks, then read and confirm

eg, Push/Start, After Start, After T/o, After lndg, shut down cx.

Others are read and do - Cockpit prep, Descent checks

There are of course memory drills for things you just have to know.

the checks are much shorter than on a light a/c, and we do them much more often - but we still get the check list out and do it as we have been trained.

Consequences of missing something when tired, under pressure in bad wx etc are too great to just pay these things lip service.

Saw a roller blind type checklist fitted to the coaming on a privately owned ex RAAF Winjeel trainer. You used to be able to buy them in Pilots Shops then typed your own checks on the roller blind. Pity if you made a spelling error, though.

The first words printed on this particular checklist was "Gooday". Real professional I thought. Took me some time to wind through the lot and counted 135 different checks to be called from start to stop. The owner must surely have been kidding himself that he needed all those checks to fly a Winjeel trainer.

The RAAF instructors in those days made you commit to memory all drills but no way were there ever 135 items. More like 30 or so.

Hudson

A very good example of the overcomplicating stupidity that has overtaken much of GA...at the insistance of CASA most of the time.

A C441 I used to fly had one...ex RFDS aeroplane. I found it to be a major distraction to use and some of the items on it completely stupid....like 'reduce to xxxx lbs TQ at TOPD' or something similar...I mean really!!! I ended up flying that aircraft for the best part of a year and about 300 hrs with no (written) checklists at all...just geographic scans at various points in the flight and a PUFF check turning finals. I did have written checklists for things that were not done every flight...like NTS system checks etc.

All SE piston powered aircraft are essentially identical...and I mean ALL.

If we ask ourselves what items can really hurt me..and therefore should be on some kind of checklist it comes down to trims/prop/undercarriage/fuel and flaps.

Even the old faithfulls like TEMPFISCH and BUMPFISCH, which are excellent, are essentially overkill in a typical Piper or Cessna...none the less they form all the checklists you will EVER need in any and every piston single or twin.

Do we need checklist items like landing lights/check windsock/park brake/beacon/strobes/set QNH and on and on?

I would argue not...but then CASA disagrees with me and all CFIs must do as Cretins Against Sensible Aviation decree.

If the park brake was off enough for you to takeoff (and you haven't fecked with it since) it should be off enough for you to land.

Oil T&Ps need to be on a checklist? not really..part of a scan yes.

Was a time when we were taught in such a way (well I was anyway) that we could hop in whatever we were pointed at, within the bounds of group endorsements, and blast off safely without a written checklist in sight.

Oh really?

The CT4B has over 210 items of normal checks which are to be memorised.
The there's the bold faced emergencies..............:E

A very good article here on the proper use of checklists in the Operations section.

http://www.smartcockpit.com

I tend to agree that a checklist should include only those items or procedures which have a direct impact on normal operations and be used only to verify that certain actions have been completed and not read like an incantation. Respect them, but use them for what they really are - a true double check

A

Perhaps the whole point of a fairly detailed written checklist is to get relatively inexperienced students to realise that there are a whole lot of things that should be checked/noted/looked at during different phases of flight.

With experience and familiarity on type, I've replaced a written checklist with mnemonics and now subconciously check, (hopefully all) other items.
eg. 'check windsock on final' is now an automatic action and backed-up with what the aircraft is actually doing.

Please, that must be a joke?

If I ever jumped into a car with a pilot who started to run through a pre start drill I wouldn't know whether to laugh, cry or get the hell out and run away.

I wonder if these pilots who are so careful with checklists use them in other aspects of their life?

What fascinating creatures they must be.

What interesting conversations they must have.

What long strokes they must make.

:{ :yuk:

BiO if that were the case it would not be unreasonable...but I don't think its the case.

In my opinion a good mneumonic is all that could ever be required in any GA aircraft.

TEMPFISCH/BUMPFISCH/PUFF allied to well thought out geographic scans are all that is ever and has ever been required in any SP operated aircraft.

Page upon page of written checklists make for braindead pilots.

LIke this curious habit taught at flying schools that you should call wheels down and locked and three greens in fixed gear aircraft!:mad:

Down and welded!

I was taught BUMCFSH or its slight variations, 'Undercarriage - Fixed'. The reasoning I was given was to get in the habit of thinking about undercarriage.

However, on the other side of the coin - once your training reaches the point of flying retractable undercarriage aircraft, are you doing it parrot fashion and not reallly checking before moving on the the next item?

CASA, like it or not, has mandated the use of AFM checklists in Australia today. While in practice (right or wrong) many operators, both flying schools and other organisations use their own type of checklist. IMO this is because in many GA aircraft the checklists are ridiculously long and in the case of the Pa-31 series for example, were simply not designed for use in this fashion. These type of "checklists" do not distinguish between memory recall items and checks and additionally add substantial instructional material (such as what speed to rotate at till what height, etc).

Having said that remember it is the one day that you are in crappy weather, a vaguely similar aircraft type (206/210 or archer/ arrow) distracted on the radio, tired ,etc. that law of averages will catch up with you!

Piper, in many of their aircraft, have pre-landing checks listed on the coping (eg, near the fuel gauges etc) These checks are usually brief and referenced directly from the AFM making them legal and very useful. Other CHECKS, like after start and pre take off I did from a written list having previously actioned the items. Reading the instructions included on manufacturers checks doesn't take that long and if it saves you from looking the fool once a year, its a good system.

IMO, I do believe that it must be written, not only does it reduce the chance of anything being missed, it is a specific cockpit task that you remember having looked at when you float for that second too long that saves you having to look back at the green lights. Much the same as multi crew pilots specifically stating "pre landing checks complete" You have put the gear down and seen the lights a million times but with those words having just been stated 60 seconds ago by the non flying pilot you know its all squared away.

The only time I use a memory checklist (as opposed to memory recall actions) is my walkaround, This is not a daily inspection, it simply checks that all doors are closed, caps are on, chocks are away, etc. There is seven items for this on my current aircraft, it takes about eight to ten seconds to complete, it is well worth the peace of mind.

Willie

Read an interesting piece on Avweb

The pilots of an Air Transat Airbus A330 that glided to a landing in the Azores in August 2001 responded incorrectly to a fuel leak over the Atlantic Ocean, according to the official report on the incident, released Monday. The pilots, reacting to what they thought was a fuel imbalance, fed fuel into the leak, and soon succeeded in inadvertently pumping all their fuel overboard, far from land. The report said the pilots acted from memory rather than utilizing a checklist, so they never saw a "Caution" note in the Fuel Imbalance checklist that might have caused them to consider that the real problem was not an imbalance but a fuel leak. "Although there were a number of other indications that a significant fuel loss was occurring, the crew did not conclude that a fuel leak situation existed -- not actioning the 'Fuel Leak' procedure was the key factor that led to the fuel exhaustion," according to the report. The fuel leak was the ultimate result of an improperly installed fuel line that fractured.

Heads Down for Checklists - Who's Watching for Traffic?

One of the common faults I see in Flight Reviews, ( 24 in last 12 months - everything from C210 to Cubs), is that the pilots either have minimal checks, or it's a head down -read- it -out- job.

Lookout and scan is one of the really weak parts I see in Reviews, and reading out a bloody 5 page check list for a C172 only makes things worse.

There seems to be a blind faith that if you make a radio call of downwind,runway 36,Woop Woop , and there's no reply, that there's no need to look for anything, ever.

I'd sooner see a very basic mental checklist used, and the eyes used outside far more.

happy days,