Is a mentor service needed
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is a mentor service needed
Survey question ... Is there a need for a free quality mentor service over the internet to selected trainee pilots with the objective of increasing standards and competency to exceed that required by airlines?
It would mean close surveillance of every aspect of training to ensure extremely high objectives are met.
It might even mean in some cases re-directing students to a better instructor with higher standards.
(Mentor means "a wise and faithful monitor and adviser".)
It would mean close surveillance of every aspect of training to ensure extremely high objectives are met.
It might even mean in some cases re-directing students to a better instructor with higher standards.
(Mentor means "a wise and faithful monitor and adviser".)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let us assume a particular student pilot does not get any pre or post flight briefing or even know the objectives of the particular flight, what do you suggest he should do?
For that matter let us assume he is a bright student and has 12 hours total and doesn't even look like going solo.
For that matter let us assume he is a bright student and has 12 hours total and doesn't even look like going solo.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
My opinion;
1) If he "does not get any pre or post flight briefing or even know the objectives of the particular flight" - then he needs to (a)demand a partial refund for the 12 hours he's flown, as pre and post flight briefs are a part of the package, and then (b) change instructors/flying schools;
or,
2)Re-assess himself and perhaps realise that he might NOT be "a bright student" after all!
Yes, there is a certain amount of self-study that needs to be done before kicking the tyres and lighting the fires, however at the tender age of 12 hours, the Instructor's job also consists of holding the student's hand (metaphorically speaking), and walking him through the stuff to be covered.
Again, in my opinion, debriefs should be relatively short - probably 5-10 minutes max - as any corrective action should be pointed out at the time, and in most cases a pilot will realise, at the time, that he has stuffed up..knowing how to avoid making the same mistake is what counts.
In answer to your question, "No".......the service SHOULD be part and parcel of that which has already been paid for, and for which the instructor is paid!
1) If he "does not get any pre or post flight briefing or even know the objectives of the particular flight" - then he needs to (a)demand a partial refund for the 12 hours he's flown, as pre and post flight briefs are a part of the package, and then (b) change instructors/flying schools;
or,
2)Re-assess himself and perhaps realise that he might NOT be "a bright student" after all!
Yes, there is a certain amount of self-study that needs to be done before kicking the tyres and lighting the fires, however at the tender age of 12 hours, the Instructor's job also consists of holding the student's hand (metaphorically speaking), and walking him through the stuff to be covered.
Again, in my opinion, debriefs should be relatively short - probably 5-10 minutes max - as any corrective action should be pointed out at the time, and in most cases a pilot will realise, at the time, that he has stuffed up..knowing how to avoid making the same mistake is what counts.
In answer to your question, "No".......the service SHOULD be part and parcel of that which has already been paid for, and for which the instructor is paid!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A mentoring service should not be needed if a consistent standard is there in the first place, no?
I always thought the CFI or equivalent was the ultimate mentor of any given organisation, and that's for both students and instructors.
The "standard" is not always the root cause of a student's learning difficulty. Sometimes it is purely an incompatibility of personality and/or teaching/learning styles and nothing to do with standards that causes individuals not to progress at the "expected" rate.
Perhaps you meant 'alternative' instructor Aeromentor?
We're all human and we all work differently. A good quality in flight instructors (no matter what level they are at) is the ability to perceive these differences in students, and an 'adaptability' to suit the individual's needs.
I even see this in cyclic sims as I'm sure many others do here. As trainees, we repond/perform better with certain Check/Training Captains than others.
I always thought the CFI or equivalent was the ultimate mentor of any given organisation, and that's for both students and instructors.
It might even mean in some cases re-directing students to a better instructor with higher standards.
Perhaps you meant 'alternative' instructor Aeromentor?
We're all human and we all work differently. A good quality in flight instructors (no matter what level they are at) is the ability to perceive these differences in students, and an 'adaptability' to suit the individual's needs.
I even see this in cyclic sims as I'm sure many others do here. As trainees, we repond/perform better with certain Check/Training Captains than others.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent posts from Kaptin M & Hugh Jarse and I agree the CFI should best be the one doing the job of Mentor...
However this is not a perfect world and whilst General Aviation says there is nothing wrong with our standards the Airlines do not agree, and after all shouldn't we listen to what they (the future employers) are saying.
(This information I have been given in a number of personal interviews with the Chief Pilot of our countrie's largest Airline.)
If the minimum times for various licences and ratings can be achieved by an above average student in ideal conditions why are so few achieving these?
ie how can I turn this student into an above average student by providing him/her with ideal learning conditions?
(and also reaching much higher standards in the process)
I am sugesting an independant mentor could (with the right sort of input and thinking outside the box) achieve this,
My 2 cents worth ...
However this is not a perfect world and whilst General Aviation says there is nothing wrong with our standards the Airlines do not agree, and after all shouldn't we listen to what they (the future employers) are saying.
(This information I have been given in a number of personal interviews with the Chief Pilot of our countrie's largest Airline.)
If the minimum times for various licences and ratings can be achieved by an above average student in ideal conditions why are so few achieving these?
ie how can I turn this student into an above average student by providing him/her with ideal learning conditions?
(and also reaching much higher standards in the process)
I am sugesting an independant mentor could (with the right sort of input and thinking outside the box) achieve this,
My 2 cents worth ...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Further to my last post
The Airline Chief Pilot told me we are scraping the bottom of the barrel to get pilots of the quality we are looking for.
I asked him how many do you knock back?
He said 8-9 out of 10
I said whats the main problem?
He said it's the old Australian "She's right mate attitude".
He also said "we cannot afford to have she's right mate pilots flying for this Airline"
So as a specialist in helping guys into the airlines over many years, feel free to call on my mobile [email protected] any that also need help in this area.
The Airline Chief Pilot told me we are scraping the bottom of the barrel to get pilots of the quality we are looking for.
I asked him how many do you knock back?
He said 8-9 out of 10
I said whats the main problem?
He said it's the old Australian "She's right mate attitude".
He also said "we cannot afford to have she's right mate pilots flying for this Airline"
So as a specialist in helping guys into the airlines over many years, feel free to call on my mobile [email protected] any that also need help in this area.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: nz
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree this should not be done @ a flight school, BUT there is no harm in offering a service like this. Whats the worst that could happen.
YOU GET BETTER PILOTS and thats not a bad thing.
YOU GET BETTER PILOTS and thats not a bad thing.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation Safety Foundation Australia (ASFA) was developed to mentor pilots instructors lames etc. This is the start of ASFA's professional development program starting with proper flying school management. ASFA is also currently refiguring its web site to enable on line proficiency training.
Thought you might be interested in this media release that is being sent out today.
"Aviation Safety Foundation Australia (ASFA) announced today a landmark safety initiative designed to enhance the standard of flying training and pilot proficiency in Australia. Chairman of ASFA the Hon John Sharp applauded Mobil Aviation for its major sponsorship of the initiative and in supporting the aviation industry at its grass roots.
In an Australian first, flying schools from around Australia have been invited to attend a “Pilot” five day Flying School Senior Management program at the end of August. Mr Sharp said this program is aimed at ensuring flying training schools have the skills and knowledge to manage and market their schools safely and effectively.
In 2002, the Federal Government allocated development funding to ASFA. A major focus of ASFA’s funding request was the establishment of an industry based, accredited continuing professional development (CPD) program. Accredited CPD programs are an integral part of most other professions but are lagging within the aviation industry Mr Sharp said.
The August program is the necessary first step in the development of a national aviation industry based CPD program planned for instructors and pilots. The program will also form a template for similar programs within all other sectors of the industry.
Flying schools managers and CFIs who attend will be invited to participate in the national program of professional development for instructors and pilots. Mr Sharp said that in addition to the greater flying enjoyment that confidence and operating proficiency brings, the CPD program is incentive based, with participants enjoying incentives such as lower insurance risks assessments and greater employment opportunities. "
Thought you might be interested in this media release that is being sent out today.
"Aviation Safety Foundation Australia (ASFA) announced today a landmark safety initiative designed to enhance the standard of flying training and pilot proficiency in Australia. Chairman of ASFA the Hon John Sharp applauded Mobil Aviation for its major sponsorship of the initiative and in supporting the aviation industry at its grass roots.
In an Australian first, flying schools from around Australia have been invited to attend a “Pilot” five day Flying School Senior Management program at the end of August. Mr Sharp said this program is aimed at ensuring flying training schools have the skills and knowledge to manage and market their schools safely and effectively.
In 2002, the Federal Government allocated development funding to ASFA. A major focus of ASFA’s funding request was the establishment of an industry based, accredited continuing professional development (CPD) program. Accredited CPD programs are an integral part of most other professions but are lagging within the aviation industry Mr Sharp said.
The August program is the necessary first step in the development of a national aviation industry based CPD program planned for instructors and pilots. The program will also form a template for similar programs within all other sectors of the industry.
Flying schools managers and CFIs who attend will be invited to participate in the national program of professional development for instructors and pilots. Mr Sharp said that in addition to the greater flying enjoyment that confidence and operating proficiency brings, the CPD program is incentive based, with participants enjoying incentives such as lower insurance risks assessments and greater employment opportunities. "
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what are needed now is top professional flying schools who are prepared to aquire at least 1 new aircraft per 10 full time mentored students sent to them.
The flights need to be strictly controlled in every aspect of quality and time. VFR training in the daytime, IFR at night. Operating around the clock to average a minimum of 10 hours/day.
This airline type utilisation will make a proffit for the school even after paying commission to those who recomend students to the system. ( And of course proper paid jobs for quality instructors who come up through the system.)
Here at last is a way designed for those who otherwise would not be able to afford flying lessons to eventually get to the airlines (by recommending students to the system.)
Of course the "she's right mate pilots, instructors and school owners" would not be interested, except to attempt to justify their current inefficient methods of training.
So there it is, if you want to know more call me or E-mail your Resume.
The flights need to be strictly controlled in every aspect of quality and time. VFR training in the daytime, IFR at night. Operating around the clock to average a minimum of 10 hours/day.
This airline type utilisation will make a proffit for the school even after paying commission to those who recomend students to the system. ( And of course proper paid jobs for quality instructors who come up through the system.)
Here at last is a way designed for those who otherwise would not be able to afford flying lessons to eventually get to the airlines (by recommending students to the system.)
Of course the "she's right mate pilots, instructors and school owners" would not be interested, except to attempt to justify their current inefficient methods of training.
So there it is, if you want to know more call me or E-mail your Resume.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not a big fan of the "form a committee" approach to problem solving and the system you propose is far to open to abuse. To track the performance of apprentice pilots we need slightly more formalized approach flight training, one way I would suggest is a standard system of training cards cross referenced with the relevant syllabus, many professional schools will no doubt want to exceed the standard set by the syllabus but the base line has to be set and seen to be achieved.
For a good description of the role of an instructor have look at the introduction in the flight instructors manual.
For a good description of the role of an instructor have look at the introduction in the flight instructors manual.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An excellent post with some very wise observations Aerodynamisist. The commitee approach however is a little different to what I had in mind.
The fact that the airlines say that "they are scraping the bottom of the barrel" means a radical different approach is needed to supplement perhaps what the student is already hearing, but not responding to.
Perhaps they need to hear the message from an independent source ( one whose agenda is to get them where they want to go, not biased towards just heaping up more hours)
I am talking about having their own personal representative helping them all the way with the sort of feedback they need.
The fact that not one student has reponded to this forum yet tells me that most don't really seem to care.
You know it reminds me of the old Bible verse in Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
In other words you can get to where you want to go, but you deffinitely have to go about it the right way
The fact that the airlines say that "they are scraping the bottom of the barrel" means a radical different approach is needed to supplement perhaps what the student is already hearing, but not responding to.
Perhaps they need to hear the message from an independent source ( one whose agenda is to get them where they want to go, not biased towards just heaping up more hours)
I am talking about having their own personal representative helping them all the way with the sort of feedback they need.
The fact that not one student has reponded to this forum yet tells me that most don't really seem to care.
You know it reminds me of the old Bible verse in Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
In other words you can get to where you want to go, but you deffinitely have to go about it the right way
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually Aeromentor, we do care, however I have to agree with Aerodynamisist that I can see a lot of pitfalls for this scheme, both for the student and the mentor. For example, when you refer to the mentor as being a "personal representative", what do you mean? I can think of several ways to interpret that phrase, some worrying. There are also a few legal pitfalls I can see re the standard of advice provided and the potential for future litigation, especially if a training school or instructor takes offence to opinions offered about the standard of their training (who wants to end up in the witness box?!).
If the system was set up by a representational organisation such as AOPA or ASFA (or the AWPA for that matter) with experience in representational issues and proper structures then I would consider it.
If the system was set up by a representational organisation such as AOPA or ASFA (or the AWPA for that matter) with experience in representational issues and proper structures then I would consider it.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually ASFA has been established as a non-profit, non-political organisation to establish standards that are acceptable to the industry and that have been debated over a period of three years.
One of the problems that ASFA was established to address was the standard of flying training. Within the next 12 months it will have accredition programs for aviation organisations, aviation training providers and consultants, instructors, pilots LAMES etc. The problem with a mentor network is to ensure that the mentors themselves provide some degree of standardisation. The ASFA Continuing Professional Development Program aims at doing this.
Unfortunately we have some well meaning people in the industry who set themselves up as "trainers or consultants" yet are not attuned to the latest in human factors and other training methods or requirements.
ASFA is keen to work with both organisations such as AOPA and the AWPA to establish appropriate mentoring and training programs.
One of the problems that ASFA was established to address was the standard of flying training. Within the next 12 months it will have accredition programs for aviation organisations, aviation training providers and consultants, instructors, pilots LAMES etc. The problem with a mentor network is to ensure that the mentors themselves provide some degree of standardisation. The ASFA Continuing Professional Development Program aims at doing this.
Unfortunately we have some well meaning people in the industry who set themselves up as "trainers or consultants" yet are not attuned to the latest in human factors and other training methods or requirements.
ASFA is keen to work with both organisations such as AOPA and the AWPA to establish appropriate mentoring and training programs.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you Foyl & Trashie for your excellent posts...
1/ Legal pitfalls, so what has our society come to. Just imagine the following,
You are a Doctor who has just come on a bad accident, the victim lying on the road in the middle of the traffic is bleeding to death. Your lawyer sitting in your car beside you says "don't what ever you do stop and help, or he will sue you for all you have". So the husband, breadwinner and father of 5 little kids dies, and 6 lives are wrecked as a result.
So what do I learn from this as a specialist Mentor? Make sure to identify the one in 10 who have the right attitude first and then only work with them. The other 9 who are happy with General Aviation mediocrity (as the airlines call it) can go their own way.
(The difference in the safety record between GA and Airlines speaks for itself)
2/ Personal representative, probably not a good term, adviser on how to specifically prepare for an airline career is probably better. (although the same principles would certainly make a safer Private Pilot).
This is in fact a little different to the excellent objectives of AOPA, ASFA, & AWPA.
No doubt we each have our own strenghts and weaknesses and should be able to work well together as a team. No doubt they have the good theory, where as mine is in the hard school of personal experience.
I have concentrated on the excellent feedback from both Senior Airlines personel and the many pilots that both succeeded and failed over my lifetime of flying experience.
Just remember the 3 Cs of leadership really applies here,
1/ Commitment,
2/ Cognizance ( knowing all you should know) and
3/ Competence, which flows from the other 2.
Finally "a well defined objective directs our efforts like a bullet is directed from a gun'', (be it long or short term).
IN other words"The more precicely we define our objectives the better the chance of succeeding.
You always start from your furtherest objective and work backward
So if you can recognise a need in your prospect client and can supply that need, he is better off and so are you.
1/ Legal pitfalls, so what has our society come to. Just imagine the following,
You are a Doctor who has just come on a bad accident, the victim lying on the road in the middle of the traffic is bleeding to death. Your lawyer sitting in your car beside you says "don't what ever you do stop and help, or he will sue you for all you have". So the husband, breadwinner and father of 5 little kids dies, and 6 lives are wrecked as a result.
So what do I learn from this as a specialist Mentor? Make sure to identify the one in 10 who have the right attitude first and then only work with them. The other 9 who are happy with General Aviation mediocrity (as the airlines call it) can go their own way.
(The difference in the safety record between GA and Airlines speaks for itself)
2/ Personal representative, probably not a good term, adviser on how to specifically prepare for an airline career is probably better. (although the same principles would certainly make a safer Private Pilot).
This is in fact a little different to the excellent objectives of AOPA, ASFA, & AWPA.
No doubt we each have our own strenghts and weaknesses and should be able to work well together as a team. No doubt they have the good theory, where as mine is in the hard school of personal experience.
I have concentrated on the excellent feedback from both Senior Airlines personel and the many pilots that both succeeded and failed over my lifetime of flying experience.
Just remember the 3 Cs of leadership really applies here,
1/ Commitment,
2/ Cognizance ( knowing all you should know) and
3/ Competence, which flows from the other 2.
Finally "a well defined objective directs our efforts like a bullet is directed from a gun'', (be it long or short term).
IN other words"The more precicely we define our objectives the better the chance of succeeding.
You always start from your furtherest objective and work backward
So if you can recognise a need in your prospect client and can supply that need, he is better off and so are you.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aeromentor I, as a student, feel there are issues raised by your scheme that should be given due consideration (and you were wondering where the students were before). I do not believe that because these are issues that I personally believe should at least be considered by a person proposing such a scheme that this should be somehow linked with "GA mediocrity" - after all we are (as pilots) all taught to consider every eventuality aren't we? So I would not be at all happy if you tagged me with that label for raising it. The scenario cited by you is a very narrow view of the wide rang of litigation that might have potential to raise it's ugly head in the course of such a scheme.
In any case, it wasn't just the students I was referring to.
I think the idea has merit, I'm not saying "forget it", but I am saying "consider it".
In any case, it wasn't just the students I was referring to.
I think the idea has merit, I'm not saying "forget it", but I am saying "consider it".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sydney. NSW Australia
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foyl, thank you for raising the litigation issues, I would really appreciate a detailed list of what you have in mind.
It could well be similar issues why the airlines won't tell you why you missed out on getting in.
Now about GA mediocrity this is the Airline Chief pilot's assesment. All I have done is listen very carefully and applied their thinking to all I see and hear and it gives a whole new understanding to the issues.
For instance...
Many of the Airline candidates I have discussed their answers given in their Airline interviews, has caused them to realise there is much more to the way they have answered the questions than they realised. Many of them subsequently got in later.
Finally...
I have no intention of working against Flying schools & instructors and never have. To work together as a team in the way the Airlines operate, means greater proffit for the School, and the instructors (who are prepared to listen to what I say) usualy finish up in the Airlines themselves anyway.
It could well be similar issues why the airlines won't tell you why you missed out on getting in.
Now about GA mediocrity this is the Airline Chief pilot's assesment. All I have done is listen very carefully and applied their thinking to all I see and hear and it gives a whole new understanding to the issues.
For instance...
Many of the Airline candidates I have discussed their answers given in their Airline interviews, has caused them to realise there is much more to the way they have answered the questions than they realised. Many of them subsequently got in later.
Finally...
I have no intention of working against Flying schools & instructors and never have. To work together as a team in the way the Airlines operate, means greater proffit for the School, and the instructors (who are prepared to listen to what I say) usualy finish up in the Airlines themselves anyway.
