C310 down at Mt Isa
C310 down at Mt Isa
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: australia
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c 310
yep! C 310 VH- IBM Operated by QAS. 2 pilots only ocupants, practice ins't. approach - r/w 16, all went quiet on short final
all one piece (nearly), nose wheel gone, L/H tip tank gone, didn't burn (no fuel left to burn), lucky boyz!
wop wop wop wop.
all one piece (nearly), nose wheel gone, L/H tip tank gone, didn't burn (no fuel left to burn), lucky boyz!
wop wop wop wop.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Okay, so if it wasn't a complete lack of fuel, could it have been a case of fuel mismanagement? Those Cessna series with the tip tanks (mains) can be a trap for young players if not handled correctly.
Those Cessna series with the tip tanks (mains) can be a trap for young players if not handled correctly.
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Id rather have full tanks as there is less room for explosive fumes(gases) to ignite,We prefer to do maintanance on our a/c with full tanks,Ive actually seen a ringer on a cattle station put out a cigi in a freshly opened 44 of fuel(we ran like hell from this d@#$%head) but he was right nothing happened.
Cap Fathom I think the 310s and 402bs have a complex fuel system.How ever 402cs nave a very simple system,no auxs just lh and rh tanks,I heard heaps of freshly 310 indorsed pilot trying to understand tere few systems
Cap Fathom I think the 310s and 402bs have a complex fuel system.How ever 402cs nave a very simple system,no auxs just lh and rh tanks,I heard heaps of freshly 310 indorsed pilot trying to understand tere few systems
The biggest deal with a C310 IMHO, is that return fuel goes back into the main (tip) tanks when aux's are selected, therefore requiring a certain amount of burn time (out of the mains) before selecting the aux's for the fuel going to each engine.
If not enough burn time (some use an hour of burn on the mains before switching, others recommend 90 mins burn first), is allowed before changing away from the mains to the aux's, the returning fuel (at roughly the same return rate as burn rate), will quickly fill the main tanks again and start venting fuel overboard.
Then there are the nacelle tanks which utilise individual electric pumps to transfer fuel from the nacelle tanks to the mains.
Simple really......
If not enough burn time (some use an hour of burn on the mains before switching, others recommend 90 mins burn first), is allowed before changing away from the mains to the aux's, the returning fuel (at roughly the same return rate as burn rate), will quickly fill the main tanks again and start venting fuel overboard.
Then there are the nacelle tanks which utilise individual electric pumps to transfer fuel from the nacelle tanks to the mains.
Simple really......
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Capt Fathom,
I am sure you have tons of experience on 310's but i still feel the fuel system is not as simple as:
A 402C, 404, 421C , B58 fuel schematic, now thats simple ON / OFF / Crossfeed.
No surging on inboards, or inexperienced drivers using Aux's before 90min/60min as the case may be. Which can be cumbersome when doing many short sectors on mailruns ect.
Also if you suffer an engine failure remember what happens to that 119 litres of fire water in the respective Aux fuel on the failure side?
You can't get it to the live engine.
as per the AFM "Auxiliary fuel on the side of the failed engine is unsuable"
I am sure you have tons of experience on 310's but i still feel the fuel system is not as simple as:
A 402C, 404, 421C , B58 fuel schematic, now thats simple ON / OFF / Crossfeed.
No surging on inboards, or inexperienced drivers using Aux's before 90min/60min as the case may be. Which can be cumbersome when doing many short sectors on mailruns ect.
Also if you suffer an engine failure remember what happens to that 119 litres of fire water in the respective Aux fuel on the failure side?
You can't get it to the live engine.
as per the AFM "Auxiliary fuel on the side of the failed engine is unsuable"
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: australia
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Well,
I heard a story, Years ago the Department hired a C310R from an operator in YSCB and were flying out west and decalred a PAN and diverted close by and wanted to suspend the operators AOC because they were not writing up things on the M/R. What the problem was according to the DEPT was leaky fuel caps. The CP of the operation just laughed at them because they had been pumping fuel over board because they didn't burn enough out of the mains.
I heard a story, Years ago the Department hired a C310R from an operator in YSCB and were flying out west and decalred a PAN and diverted close by and wanted to suspend the operators AOC because they were not writing up things on the M/R. What the problem was according to the DEPT was leaky fuel caps. The CP of the operation just laughed at them because they had been pumping fuel over board because they didn't burn enough out of the mains.
It has been a while since I have flown a C310R. I have also flown C402C and C404. I would have to agree that the C310R’s fuel system is definitely more complicated than the C402C and the C404 but you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work it out. The pilots operating handbook recommends 90 minutes burn out of the mains before burning from the aux’s. This is to ensure, as has been said before you don’t pump fuel overboard from the mains because of the fuel return lines to the mains. From memory there is also a restriction on using the aux’s for take-off, climb, descent and landing.
Now the way I operated the fuel system was to change to aux’s at top of climb, then change back to mains once they were full. The fuel gauges in all Cessna twins are very accurate. After 30 minutes I would go back to aux’s and repeat the above process until they were empty or top of descent. I used this method to ensure I had as much fuel in the mains as possible in the event of an engine failure and the inability to cross feed from the aux tanks.
As for the reason for the double engine failure of VH-IBM, I will not has it a guess on this forum but I have my suspicions. Lets all wait until the official report comes out before jumping to conclusions.
Now the way I operated the fuel system was to change to aux’s at top of climb, then change back to mains once they were full. The fuel gauges in all Cessna twins are very accurate. After 30 minutes I would go back to aux’s and repeat the above process until they were empty or top of descent. I used this method to ensure I had as much fuel in the mains as possible in the event of an engine failure and the inability to cross feed from the aux tanks.
As for the reason for the double engine failure of VH-IBM, I will not has it a guess on this forum but I have my suspicions. Lets all wait until the official report comes out before jumping to conclusions.
Join Date: May 2001
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Why not just do as the manual says?
I used to fly first 90 mins on mains, change to Auxes til TOD or empty, then back to mains.
In this country we seem to have an aversion to manufacturer's recommendations which are usually [not always] bulletproof!
I used to fly first 90 mins on mains, change to Auxes til TOD or empty, then back to mains.
In this country we seem to have an aversion to manufacturer's recommendations which are usually [not always] bulletproof!
Tankengine
On a lot of the routes I flew if I didn’t do as I have stated it would have left me with not enough fuel in the mains to make it to a suitable enroute alternate in the event of an engine failure. Cairns direct to Port Moresby or Missima was a long way over water not to have enough fuel if a donk should stop. A little bit of lateral thinking was required to complete the job safely and in accordance with our Ops Manual, AOC and the regs. The Pilots Operating handbook only states you should burn 90 minutes from the mains if you intend to burn the full aux tanks dry in one go. It is allowing for the lowest common denominator or worst-case scenario. They are covering their ar*es.
On a lot of the routes I flew if I didn’t do as I have stated it would have left me with not enough fuel in the mains to make it to a suitable enroute alternate in the event of an engine failure. Cairns direct to Port Moresby or Missima was a long way over water not to have enough fuel if a donk should stop. A little bit of lateral thinking was required to complete the job safely and in accordance with our Ops Manual, AOC and the regs. The Pilots Operating handbook only states you should burn 90 minutes from the mains if you intend to burn the full aux tanks dry in one go. It is allowing for the lowest common denominator or worst-case scenario. They are covering their ar*es.
