Student Loans and Pilot training
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Student Loans and Pilot training
I would make this a poll.. but I can't find the button... grrrrrwww
So what do you reckon about New Zealand's student loan scheme, and people being able to put all their flight training on the student loan scheme?
Savior of the industry through the rejuvenation of the flight training industry
or
Bane of our existance, flooding an already over populated pilot employment market with more competition?
So what do you reckon about New Zealand's student loan scheme, and people being able to put all their flight training on the student loan scheme?
Savior of the industry through the rejuvenation of the flight training industry
or
Bane of our existance, flooding an already over populated pilot employment market with more competition?
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Ill go for the latter but now that its here it has changed the training scene and if the plug was pulled half of us would be out of buisness. 
Having said that prehaps if it was structured slightly diferrently where by the loans were still avaliable but they were harder to get? eg. PPL/CPL/MEIR theory has to be self funded and passed before $60K is granted.
Probably best be carefull on this topic or one of Helens army might pass through the post and decide the put the axe through the scheme overnight thus putting an end to most training organisions.
Having said that prehaps if it was structured slightly diferrently where by the loans were still avaliable but they were harder to get? eg. PPL/CPL/MEIR theory has to be self funded and passed before $60K is granted.
Probably best be carefull on this topic or one of Helens army might pass through the post and decide the put the axe through the scheme overnight thus putting an end to most training organisions.
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Da comrade, We do not want Helenski or her KGB goons to catch on to this.. but I think we will find them too busy with other things, like taxing the hell out of our alcoholic berverages...
But another phrase from another thread springs the mind..
Maybe something to think about, unless we all did the international overseas student thing and all went for that market... 
The idea of passing exams first and then loan is a good idea.. maybe they oughta catch onto that idea.
Then at least if we bore them with theory for the first year, we can filter out the time wasters that just use and abuse the loan scheme to go flying, then never finish their flying.. such a waste.. I mean that money would be better spent on the dole supporting all the flight instructors that are teaching them!
But another phrase from another thread springs the mind..
Too many mouths at the trough means not enough food to go around...every level of life form has that worked out except humans...and we suffer because of it.
60% less flying schools providing 40% less CPLs would have this industry fixed in 10 years...tops!!
60% less flying schools providing 40% less CPLs would have this industry fixed in 10 years...tops!!
The idea of passing exams first and then loan is a good idea.. maybe they oughta catch onto that idea.
Then at least if we bore them with theory for the first year, we can filter out the time wasters that just use and abuse the loan scheme to go flying, then never finish their flying.. such a waste.. I mean that money would be better spent on the dole supporting all the flight instructors that are teaching them!
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People
This is not my research but the facts have come from the Ministry of Education and the CAA and are public information available by using the freedom of Information Act.
Copied from a report produced in 2002
"In the two and a half years that the Ministry of Education has contracted StudyLink to oversee delivery of the Student Loan Scheme for aviation training they have paid out just under thirty eight million dollars to eighteen hundred prospective aviation students. This is a staggering amount. Given the history and the current the state this industry, it is abhorrent that this debit has been created solely be eighteen training organisations."
The numbers speak for themselves $ 38,000,000.00 to 1800 people. The complete industry amounts to 2200 people employed (2001 Census).
But Don't worry just keep producing those shiny new CPL holders we need more forecort attendants anyway.
This is not my research but the facts have come from the Ministry of Education and the CAA and are public information available by using the freedom of Information Act.
Copied from a report produced in 2002
"In the two and a half years that the Ministry of Education has contracted StudyLink to oversee delivery of the Student Loan Scheme for aviation training they have paid out just under thirty eight million dollars to eighteen hundred prospective aviation students. This is a staggering amount. Given the history and the current the state this industry, it is abhorrent that this debit has been created solely be eighteen training organisations."
The numbers speak for themselves $ 38,000,000.00 to 1800 people. The complete industry amounts to 2200 people employed (2001 Census).
But Don't worry just keep producing those shiny new CPL holders we need more forecort attendants anyway.
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I think for the current low time instructors its good, but for the industry on the whole, there will be a flood of CPL's & C-Cats some that will work for free 
Putting other more experienced Instructors out. I know of several students that did CPL -H then went out into the world & surprisingly couldn't find a job, back they come, do a CPL - A , Still cant get a job, then they do a C - Cat. they come out with a $100k + loan, how is a pilot / instructor ever gonna be able to pay that back ?????
Glad I don't have to go theu any of that anymore !
Putting other more experienced Instructors out. I know of several students that did CPL -H then went out into the world & surprisingly couldn't find a job, back they come, do a CPL - A , Still cant get a job, then they do a C - Cat. they come out with a $100k + loan, how is a pilot / instructor ever gonna be able to pay that back ?????Glad I don't have to go theu any of that anymore !
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All this talk of CPLs flooding the market is all
well and good....but, after seeing first hand
the types of people signing up for +$70000
loans, Im lost for words!
This may sound harsh or arrogant but I would
estimate 5% or LESS of these students (at one
particular school) pass all the req. subjects and
appear KEEN to fly and obtain the licences and
ratings.
I wouldnt lose any sleep
well and good....but, after seeing first hand
the types of people signing up for +$70000
loans, Im lost for words!
This may sound harsh or arrogant but I would
estimate 5% or LESS of these students (at one
particular school) pass all the req. subjects and
appear KEEN to fly and obtain the licences and
ratings.
I wouldnt lose any sleep
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I must admit though, it's hard to watch these 18 year olds streak ahead while I'm still busting my butt by working to pay for it myself. I just hope it's appreciated later on when I apply for that elusive job.
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In my opinion the problem lies with the NZQA.
They need to lay down some v strict guidelines
and entry criteria similar to uni med school (similar size
loans) and maybe an interview as well. Very limited
places wouldnt hurt either.
Until this happens, theres no way flying school 'x'
will turn student #6589 and his $70000 away!
I dont think there is anything wrong with flight training
via s.loan, as long as he/she is dedicated and doesnt
expect too much after the two/three years...eg. the
massey stereotype
They need to lay down some v strict guidelines
and entry criteria similar to uni med school (similar size
loans) and maybe an interview as well. Very limited
places wouldnt hurt either.
Until this happens, theres no way flying school 'x'
will turn student #6589 and his $70000 away!
I dont think there is anything wrong with flight training
via s.loan, as long as he/she is dedicated and doesnt
expect too much after the two/three years...eg. the
massey stereotype
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I find it hard to believe that the loan scheme is helping instructors build their hours, you only have to visit the local Flying school at ardmore and you will see about 30 - 40 instructors standing around doing nothing waiting for that one lesson, because there aren't enough aircraft to go around. I.E four instructors to one aircraft. However if you go and visit a local aero club, one I can think of based in Dairy Flat north of Auckland, you will find 5 full time instructors and a hand full of part timers who are all doing 50 - 60 hrs a month during the summer, and there are no student loans.
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Komatua
Just How do you think those 30 - 40 instructors got there in the first place...
Also why do you think they can't get access to an aircraft... perhaps it's because they are all up flying ...
With new students paying for training by student loans...
Just How do you think those 30 - 40 instructors got there in the first place...
Also why do you think they can't get access to an aircraft... perhaps it's because they are all up flying ...
With new students paying for training by student loans...
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I am fairly new to these forums ..
I am a student pilot who is currently studying and has a student loan upwards of $80,000 to pay for my training.
Firstly it simply disgust me to see so many of you being so negative.
We have as much right to become pilots as you all did and the fact that we are using student loans to pay for it seems to put the cork up a lot of peoples noses.
Just because we have had an easier time paying for our training than some people had , it should'nt be held against us.
I am 20 , my parents combined income is less than that of the average full time salary earner aged 35 - 50, they dont own a house , they have no savings , there car only just goes, they have little assets .
I saved for so many years all my money from paper rounds etc to do the ppl theory and even then didnt know where the money was going to come from to even start the flying itself
What I am trying to get at is this .
I have always wanted to be a pilot and through my training have found myself to be good at what I do and I really enjoy it.
However without the goverments student loan system there is no way I could possibly pay for my training without working 10 - 15 years first,or doing it over 10 years
Is the real issue here the loans and the debt we are going to get ourselves into OR is it the fact that alot of people are peeved we are getting it easy money wise, to get ourselves into the industry.
And what is wrong with working at a service station , thats my current occupation.
I like the fact that alot of you pilots get frustrated because you think the industry is overstocked already.
Sure these jobs may not be in your home town or even country, but there definitely there.If you want to be a pilot your going to be a pilot, Maybe some of you are to scared to move to far away from mum and dads wallet's.
I have already made active contact by phone to 3 people and 1 in person about work when I complete my training , but then again I am working bloodey hard to find them.Maybe some of you need to stop winging it and get of ya bums, And I won't be working for free either.
Of course I am not talking to everyone but only a few people , and all I can say is that when you start treating the people in this industry like the professionals they are regardless whether they are new ppl's or captains of airline jets this industry will be alot better of.
We all have one thing is common .. We are all Pilots
I am a student pilot who is currently studying and has a student loan upwards of $80,000 to pay for my training.
Firstly it simply disgust me to see so many of you being so negative.
We have as much right to become pilots as you all did and the fact that we are using student loans to pay for it seems to put the cork up a lot of peoples noses.
Just because we have had an easier time paying for our training than some people had , it should'nt be held against us.
I am 20 , my parents combined income is less than that of the average full time salary earner aged 35 - 50, they dont own a house , they have no savings , there car only just goes, they have little assets .
I saved for so many years all my money from paper rounds etc to do the ppl theory and even then didnt know where the money was going to come from to even start the flying itself
What I am trying to get at is this .
I have always wanted to be a pilot and through my training have found myself to be good at what I do and I really enjoy it.
However without the goverments student loan system there is no way I could possibly pay for my training without working 10 - 15 years first,or doing it over 10 years
Is the real issue here the loans and the debt we are going to get ourselves into OR is it the fact that alot of people are peeved we are getting it easy money wise, to get ourselves into the industry.
And what is wrong with working at a service station , thats my current occupation.
I like the fact that alot of you pilots get frustrated because you think the industry is overstocked already.
Sure these jobs may not be in your home town or even country, but there definitely there.If you want to be a pilot your going to be a pilot, Maybe some of you are to scared to move to far away from mum and dads wallet's.
I have already made active contact by phone to 3 people and 1 in person about work when I complete my training , but then again I am working bloodey hard to find them.Maybe some of you need to stop winging it and get of ya bums, And I won't be working for free either.
Of course I am not talking to everyone but only a few people , and all I can say is that when you start treating the people in this industry like the professionals they are regardless whether they are new ppl's or captains of airline jets this industry will be alot better of.
We all have one thing is common .. We are all Pilots
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No..I'm peeved at the 1800 students getting $38 Million dollars, when I'm sure 1699 of them will probably not continue flying after their training finishes. Thats a heck of a lot of money to waste.. and thats what puts a cork my my nose...
I have seen this first hand...
No I'm not one of them, I'm happily still flying in the industry...
but on the contrary.. at least it keep all the flight instructors employed...
it almost feels like a huge pyramid scheme....
flyboy-NZ - keep your panties on.. no one said that cause you paid by student loan, that it would be held against you..
I have seen this first hand...
No I'm not one of them, I'm happily still flying in the industry...
but on the contrary.. at least it keep all the flight instructors employed...
it almost feels like a huge pyramid scheme....
flyboy-NZ - keep your panties on.. no one said that cause you paid by student loan, that it would be held against you..
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flyboy-nz,
Cyphers right - no one was being critical of anyone who takes out the entire loan - more the fact the loans are too easy to get. Your scenario is one which student loans were introduced for however with so many people able to get access to them so easily a 'filter' needs to be put in place such as self funding and passing the theory and then the loan be made avaliable.
All the best and dont take the thread the wrong way.
Cyphers right - no one was being critical of anyone who takes out the entire loan - more the fact the loans are too easy to get. Your scenario is one which student loans were introduced for however with so many people able to get access to them so easily a 'filter' needs to be put in place such as self funding and passing the theory and then the loan be made avaliable.
All the best and dont take the thread the wrong way.
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Thanks for your replys guys ..
I know I may have come across abit harsh in my initial posting and I do apologise, I'm sure you know that although $38 million is alot of money it is a loan and is expected to be paid back ..
I know that I will have a great avaition career and would like to think paying of my student debt will be possible one day.
However I do agree that there should be some filtering system in place, I don't understand how some of the people get accepted onto the courses. There are too many students abusing the system who know well and truly that they will not be flying after there student loan money has run dry.
Just remember the debt is mine, and I have to pay it back not you.
I know I may have come across abit harsh in my initial posting and I do apologise, I'm sure you know that although $38 million is alot of money it is a loan and is expected to be paid back ..
I know that I will have a great avaition career and would like to think paying of my student debt will be possible one day.
However I do agree that there should be some filtering system in place, I don't understand how some of the people get accepted onto the courses. There are too many students abusing the system who know well and truly that they will not be flying after there student loan money has run dry.
Just remember the debt is mine, and I have to pay it back not you.
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flyboy-nz,
Yes these students are abusing the system, but the
joke is on them!
There seems to be a pattern:
1)Student x turns up late to his/her theory classes
2)Student x then decides he/she doesnt need to
turn up to class much (always something better to
do)
3)Student x then passes one ppl subject-blames the
f.school
***This must be the end of student x right? Wrong******
4)Student gets let into commercial theory- "I'll concentrate
on the commercial subjects as they supercede ppl"
5)Student x once again never turns up to class
6)Student x fails all but one subject again
****This surely must be the end..right? WRONG******
7)Our student x know thinks he/she will have a crack at
flying.
8)Now something strange happens....x is seen studying
on their own- now it seems there is nothing better to do!
9)Student x has 40 hours but hasnt flown solo- why?
No medical, yes thats right our student has taken out
a HUGE loan and my be deaf/blind with heart trouble!
Anyway, enough ranting from me!
Yes these students are abusing the system, but the
joke is on them!
There seems to be a pattern:
1)Student x turns up late to his/her theory classes
2)Student x then decides he/she doesnt need to
turn up to class much (always something better to
do)
3)Student x then passes one ppl subject-blames the
f.school
***This must be the end of student x right? Wrong******
4)Student gets let into commercial theory- "I'll concentrate
on the commercial subjects as they supercede ppl"
5)Student x once again never turns up to class
6)Student x fails all but one subject again
****This surely must be the end..right? WRONG******
7)Our student x know thinks he/she will have a crack at
flying.
8)Now something strange happens....x is seen studying
on their own- now it seems there is nothing better to do!
9)Student x has 40 hours but hasnt flown solo- why?
No medical, yes thats right our student has taken out
a HUGE loan and my be deaf/blind with heart trouble!
Anyway, enough ranting from me!
Your first year out of the souped up flying school no job and 70g in debt now add 5000 in interest.
Year 2 out of school still not still not sitting in the right seat of some flash jet like told and still trying to get hours on the dole or at maca's add another 5300.
Year 3 finally get some part time instucting at the other end of the country but have to keep the dole payments as you get told there's some one else who can do your job add 5600.
Year 4 Now extremely happy as you have your first fulltime flying job instructing, look at the bill the IRD sent you release that your now nearly 90g in debt **** a brick whole cares i'll pay it off when i'm a captian on something big!! for your troubles add 6200.
Year 5 Now even better off as now doing some part time multi instructing and the school has now giving you a small salary.The future looks really bright might getting into eagle or origin soon for your happy mood add 6700.
Year 6 Get into the airlines now over the moon can get some where in life,first year salary around 30g for your promtion add 7000.
This is starting to turn out like a bad game of monoply?
Year 7 second year in the airlines get a bill from the Helen(or will it be Mr Peters then??) of 107000g.Who gives a toss they'll wipe the student loans soon if not i'll be a captian soon?for your bad out burst at the govt add 7500.
Year 8 Getting pissed off no movement still a FO add 8100
Lost interest in doing this mind the pun!
But in that time you have added around 52000 in interest!!!!
This is not too accurate as have added the very few repayments you make but close on it makes you think dosen't it?
Didn't add in you should hear the bank manager laugh when you go to him to ask to buy a house at age 30 still a FO on 30g give or take and 100g+ in debt. You don't think about these thing when your 20 on top of the world.
My apologies about being this negative on a friday but food for thought for any young ones out there thinking about signing on the dotted line.
Year 2 out of school still not still not sitting in the right seat of some flash jet like told and still trying to get hours on the dole or at maca's add another 5300.
Year 3 finally get some part time instucting at the other end of the country but have to keep the dole payments as you get told there's some one else who can do your job add 5600.
Year 4 Now extremely happy as you have your first fulltime flying job instructing, look at the bill the IRD sent you release that your now nearly 90g in debt **** a brick whole cares i'll pay it off when i'm a captian on something big!! for your troubles add 6200.
Year 5 Now even better off as now doing some part time multi instructing and the school has now giving you a small salary.The future looks really bright might getting into eagle or origin soon for your happy mood add 6700.
Year 6 Get into the airlines now over the moon can get some where in life,first year salary around 30g for your promtion add 7000.
This is starting to turn out like a bad game of monoply?
Year 7 second year in the airlines get a bill from the Helen(or will it be Mr Peters then??) of 107000g.Who gives a toss they'll wipe the student loans soon if not i'll be a captian soon?for your bad out burst at the govt add 7500.
Year 8 Getting pissed off no movement still a FO add 8100
Lost interest in doing this mind the pun!
But in that time you have added around 52000 in interest!!!!
This is not too accurate as have added the very few repayments you make but close on it makes you think dosen't it?
Didn't add in you should hear the bank manager laugh when you go to him to ask to buy a house at age 30 still a FO on 30g give or take and 100g+ in debt. You don't think about these thing when your 20 on top of the world.
My apologies about being this negative on a friday but food for thought for any young ones out there thinking about signing on the dotted line.
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Student loans now strangled?
Any one heard of a letter doing the rounds which effectively cans student loans - or at least severely curtails them? The letter is apparently signed by the minister for something and is addressed to individual flying training outfits. Why to individual outfits? Are some being treated differently to others? Is this the rebirth of flying training at aero clubs? 
I am.
I am.
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Aviation student loans curtailed
The letter curtailing student loans is from Minister Steve Maharey and signed by him but apparently does not have any timing information on it. At least 2 flight schools have received them. This is of considerable significance to flight training in NZ but not entirely unexpected. Has anyone else heard about this? The lack of response on pp may suggest that the letter's circulation is limited to specific schools. At least one school has said it may have to close without full funding, so there will probably be more. If there are as many spare instructors as a previous contributor suggested, then it seems those ranks are about to swell. Conversely the oversupply of pilots may start to reduce. Time will tell.