Cadet Programs, are they worth it?
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Cadet Programs, are they worth it?
I realise this has probably been done to death but I was just looking for a bit of advice.
A friend of mine has been offered a position with a regional operator that will cost him a lot of cash and at the end of it will be employed for 18 months in a Metro as FO including 6 months of training. There is no gauranteed employment at the end. He is already CPL but not IFR. Has anyone been through similar programs and how have they fared at the end? Is it worth doing or would he be better off doing the bush thing? How easy is it to get a job with FO time?
Advice is appreciated and please dont use this to bash cadets etc.
A friend of mine has been offered a position with a regional operator that will cost him a lot of cash and at the end of it will be employed for 18 months in a Metro as FO including 6 months of training. There is no gauranteed employment at the end. He is already CPL but not IFR. Has anyone been through similar programs and how have they fared at the end? Is it worth doing or would he be better off doing the bush thing? How easy is it to get a job with FO time?
Advice is appreciated and please dont use this to bash cadets etc.
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If your friend gets the 18 months on the Metro as promised then I say it's worth it. I'd rather have 18 months of twin turbine, multi crew than 18 months single piston bush/north type flying.
I paid for my type rating (I know alot of people frown upon this but I have a job in the end) and I now fly F27's for a freight company. The job was not guaranteed until I passed the type rating but in the end, I got an airline job with 400 hours total time. I would still be bumming around in a C206 dropping meat bombs if I didn't make the financial commitment to the type rating.
I paid for my type rating (I know alot of people frown upon this but I have a job in the end) and I now fly F27's for a freight company. The job was not guaranteed until I passed the type rating but in the end, I got an airline job with 400 hours total time. I would still be bumming around in a C206 dropping meat bombs if I didn't make the financial commitment to the type rating.
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Sure it is nice to fly a turbine multi crew straight out of flying school with only a few hundred hours however one day you will have get your multi command time - that's if you don't want to be a permanent FO !!
Myself and many others obtained our "required" multi command by starting of single engine bush flying up north.
I have come across several turbine FO's who face such a problem - where they will never go turbine command until they get some multi command. Meaning eventually they will have to "step back" into a multi piston, and maybe even go bush/north.
Many airlines require multi command time but do not require any turbine time.
Usually the way to get multi command is by starting of single command, either charter or instructing.
With FO time, I don't believe it will help you with your next job if its flying charter as you have no command time yet (some operators will accuse you of only being a radio operator) and 2 crew turbine is very different to single pilot charter.
Myself and many others obtained our "required" multi command by starting of single engine bush flying up north.
I have come across several turbine FO's who face such a problem - where they will never go turbine command until they get some multi command. Meaning eventually they will have to "step back" into a multi piston, and maybe even go bush/north.
Many airlines require multi command time but do not require any turbine time.
Usually the way to get multi command is by starting of single command, either charter or instructing.
With FO time, I don't believe it will help you with your next job if its flying charter as you have no command time yet (some operators will accuse you of only being a radio operator) and 2 crew turbine is very different to single pilot charter.
Used and Abused
Have to agree with Bagot_Community_Locator here. My previous job was for an all multi engine charter company in FNQ. I remember a number of years ago a turbine operator in PNG was down sizing and laying off a number of the said career F/O’s. We use to get them coming through our doors all the time looking for work. Most of them couldn’t believe it when I told them they didn’t meet our minimum requirements. “But you only operate piston twins and I have 5000hrs”. “Yes but you have no command time”. My advise to wannabes is to get command time. Once you have a reasonable amount of this fill your boots with the F/O time.
PS: Unless the Cadetship is with Qantas I would forget it. All other major airlines in the region require Multi engine IFR command time.
Have to agree with Bagot_Community_Locator here. My previous job was for an all multi engine charter company in FNQ. I remember a number of years ago a turbine operator in PNG was down sizing and laying off a number of the said career F/O’s. We use to get them coming through our doors all the time looking for work. Most of them couldn’t believe it when I told them they didn’t meet our minimum requirements. “But you only operate piston twins and I have 5000hrs”. “Yes but you have no command time”. My advise to wannabes is to get command time. Once you have a reasonable amount of this fill your boots with the F/O time.
PS: Unless the Cadetship is with Qantas I would forget it. All other major airlines in the region require Multi engine IFR command time.
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I guess thats the difference with the UK operators to the Oz operators. Just about all of our current Captains on the F27 got command when they got the required 1500-1600 hours total to gain their ATPL, it was their first job in most cases.
When you fly in the right hand seat as Pilot Handling, it's considered ICUS, so there's your command time. They (UK operators) look at hours differently over here.
Used and Abused,
If your friends ambition is to get into the airlines then it's probably a good thing. I can't see how single pilot/single-multi piston flying bush is more valuable than twin turbine multi crew to the major airlines. I would suggest he looks at the requirements for the major airlines like Qantas and Virgin and see what they mention about "Command Time"
I'm not say Bush flying is inferior to scheduled multi crew stuff, it's just different skills and in most cases, Bush flying is far more demanding (and scary!!!).
When you fly in the right hand seat as Pilot Handling, it's considered ICUS, so there's your command time. They (UK operators) look at hours differently over here.
Used and Abused,
If your friends ambition is to get into the airlines then it's probably a good thing. I can't see how single pilot/single-multi piston flying bush is more valuable than twin turbine multi crew to the major airlines. I would suggest he looks at the requirements for the major airlines like Qantas and Virgin and see what they mention about "Command Time"
I'm not say Bush flying is inferior to scheduled multi crew stuff, it's just different skills and in most cases, Bush flying is far more demanding (and scary!!!).
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If you have a choice, go for the multi piston command time. The Metro f/o time will only look good if you've got the command time. The last regional airline I worked for employed ansett cadets as f\os on their turbo props. When AN went belly up they were virtually unemployable as some of them didn't even have 500 hour single eng. command time. I think the only ones working now are the lucky few who scored with QF. The rest have left the industry or have had to start at the bottom again to get the required experience.Until CASA and the insurance industry change their policy f/o time is next to worthless without the minimum command time. Whose to say the metro operation will even be there in six months?
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I have flown with guys who did the old AN cadetship and like QF, AN recognised that 500 multi command alone doesn't ensure that you are suitable for Airline flying.
Australia seems to be behind the world in this area. Until CASA changes its stance on the issue of command time requirements the only cadetship your friend should aim for is QF. Otherwise he would be better to tick the box of the 500 M/E Command.
To add to CCY Sam, of the AN Cadets 90% of them are employed with either QF or other major airlines. Actually, because of their experience, these guys & girls were some of the first ones to be employed following the AN collapse and only 2 have the 500 M/E Command time.
Good luck to your friend in his decision
Australia seems to be behind the world in this area. Until CASA changes its stance on the issue of command time requirements the only cadetship your friend should aim for is QF. Otherwise he would be better to tick the box of the 500 M/E Command.
To add to CCY Sam, of the AN Cadets 90% of them are employed with either QF or other major airlines. Actually, because of their experience, these guys & girls were some of the first ones to be employed following the AN collapse and only 2 have the 500 M/E Command time.
Good luck to your friend in his decision
Used & Abused
Why don't you get your mate to sit down with the proposed operator of the cadet scheme & ask them for some contact details of people who have previously done the course. If the operator is only too happy to do that, then I would suggest that it is a good sign that everything is above board & probably worthwhile. However, if they are reluctant to put your friend in touch with any previous students, I would probably shy away from them and look elsewhere. I'd also ask them if they have any contacts at smaller operators that mght assist you in the future in getting a start flying charter on singles or twins to build command time when the F/O time comes to an end.
Having said all of that, I did a cadetship several years ago with a training company (now defunct) based on the premise of paying for my training, and then being guaranteed 12 months employment as a turbine F/O. (In my case I ended up flying the B1900D)
After doing around 550 hours of B1900D time, an opportunity arose for me to go onto a C402 with just 950 hours total time. This was offered to me primarily as a result of my experince flying the 1900D over very similar routes, and also on the fact that I had time 'in country'. Although the transition was initially quite difficult, I persevered & ended up doing nearly 600 hours of Single Pilot, IFR multi time over the next 7 months or so.
When I came back home for holidays I managed to schedule my Qantas testing. All went well & 3 weeks later I had a start date as a 744 S/O.
I'm not suggesting that this is by any means a normal progression. However, do bear in mind that prior to starting the cadetship I had a grand total of 150 hours, so I was in much the same boat as your friend. Total time from finishing my training to getting into qantas was exactly 18 months - pretty good in the big scheme of things.
I would suggest that if your friend has the means & opprtunity to do this sort of course - then go for it. After all, worst case scenario is that he does 12 months of metro time, then has to head out bush and get the required command time. This may seem like he's hugely disadvantaged at first, but don't forget that once he's got the required single/multi command time, he goes straight to the front of the class again, as he'll already have turbine, RPT, multi crew training & experience.
Further, if you take a close look at the Qantas min requirements page, you'll notice that if you have 1000hrs of F/O turbine time, you only need 250 hrs command time (single OR twin). If by chance you manage to accrue 1500 hrs of F/O time, then you'll need just 150 hrs of command time (single OR twin) to meet the min requirements - and this includes all of the early command time that you did for the initial issue of your CPL.
That's my thoughts on the issue. Looking back on it, I have no regrets at all. I wish your friend the best of luck in whatever decision he makes.
(If you'd like any more info, please feel free to PM me)
Why don't you get your mate to sit down with the proposed operator of the cadet scheme & ask them for some contact details of people who have previously done the course. If the operator is only too happy to do that, then I would suggest that it is a good sign that everything is above board & probably worthwhile. However, if they are reluctant to put your friend in touch with any previous students, I would probably shy away from them and look elsewhere. I'd also ask them if they have any contacts at smaller operators that mght assist you in the future in getting a start flying charter on singles or twins to build command time when the F/O time comes to an end.
Having said all of that, I did a cadetship several years ago with a training company (now defunct) based on the premise of paying for my training, and then being guaranteed 12 months employment as a turbine F/O. (In my case I ended up flying the B1900D)
After doing around 550 hours of B1900D time, an opportunity arose for me to go onto a C402 with just 950 hours total time. This was offered to me primarily as a result of my experince flying the 1900D over very similar routes, and also on the fact that I had time 'in country'. Although the transition was initially quite difficult, I persevered & ended up doing nearly 600 hours of Single Pilot, IFR multi time over the next 7 months or so.
When I came back home for holidays I managed to schedule my Qantas testing. All went well & 3 weeks later I had a start date as a 744 S/O.
I'm not suggesting that this is by any means a normal progression. However, do bear in mind that prior to starting the cadetship I had a grand total of 150 hours, so I was in much the same boat as your friend. Total time from finishing my training to getting into qantas was exactly 18 months - pretty good in the big scheme of things.
I would suggest that if your friend has the means & opprtunity to do this sort of course - then go for it. After all, worst case scenario is that he does 12 months of metro time, then has to head out bush and get the required command time. This may seem like he's hugely disadvantaged at first, but don't forget that once he's got the required single/multi command time, he goes straight to the front of the class again, as he'll already have turbine, RPT, multi crew training & experience.
Further, if you take a close look at the Qantas min requirements page, you'll notice that if you have 1000hrs of F/O turbine time, you only need 250 hrs command time (single OR twin). If by chance you manage to accrue 1500 hrs of F/O time, then you'll need just 150 hrs of command time (single OR twin) to meet the min requirements - and this includes all of the early command time that you did for the initial issue of your CPL.
That's my thoughts on the issue. Looking back on it, I have no regrets at all. I wish your friend the best of luck in whatever decision he makes.
(If you'd like any more info, please feel free to PM me)
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Used & Abused
I too am looking at this sort of Cadet option. As someone at the wrong end of the age envelope (30+) it appeals as a possible way of speeding up the process of getting into regionals. Anyone feel free to correct me if this is a bit of wishful thinking.
I have heard of a similar scheme where upon completion of IR (not sure if ATPL's incl) you are guaranteed 12months FO with a regional QLD operator (probably on Metros). I have also heard that the operator runs the training establishment and the only prerequisite seams to be the amount of redies you have, too good to be true? can any of you enlighten me? Also do you need ATPL theory credits to fly FO in RPT Ops?
I am presently meatbombing on Cessnas and will be waiting to get at least 500hrs SE command time before moving on in any case.
Is it any advantage to have that much SE I/C after the12 months on 'Kero Burners' or are you still 'pondlife' until you get the magic 500 ME? IFR / VFR .
Any advise on questions above greatly appreciated.
Kindest Regards
Prop...
PS: URL's for Cadet Schemes also appreciated.
I too am looking at this sort of Cadet option. As someone at the wrong end of the age envelope (30+) it appeals as a possible way of speeding up the process of getting into regionals. Anyone feel free to correct me if this is a bit of wishful thinking.
I have heard of a similar scheme where upon completion of IR (not sure if ATPL's incl) you are guaranteed 12months FO with a regional QLD operator (probably on Metros). I have also heard that the operator runs the training establishment and the only prerequisite seams to be the amount of redies you have, too good to be true? can any of you enlighten me? Also do you need ATPL theory credits to fly FO in RPT Ops?
I am presently meatbombing on Cessnas and will be waiting to get at least 500hrs SE command time before moving on in any case.
Is it any advantage to have that much SE I/C after the12 months on 'Kero Burners' or are you still 'pondlife' until you get the magic 500 ME? IFR / VFR .
Any advise on questions above greatly appreciated.
Kindest Regards
Prop...
PS: URL's for Cadet Schemes also appreciated.
Propduster
I have a good mate who was in much the same position as yourself. He left a professional career to pursue a career in aviation.
He chose the same cadet course that I did, starting as a true ab-initio student with no real prior experience as a fixed wing pilot. Following the completion of the course, he completed his training as a twin otter F/O, eventually doing close to 900 hours on type. Like myself, he was able to move into a job flying twins, and accrued about 1000 hrs of multi command. From there, he applied to virgin blue with ~2000 hrs and was successful.
He has subsequently completed his 737 classic & NG endorsements, and is now a F/O with Virgin. He loves his job & never looks back with regret at his decision to give up his former profession & pursue his dream. He joined another 2 former cadets from the same organisation at Virgin - both of whom joined with similar experience levels. (Currently there are also 5 from the same cadetship at Qantas, with another (hopefully) just waiting for a start date...) All of us worked hard throughout our training, and continued to work hard when we were out on the line.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you really want something & are prepared to put in the hard work, then you will be able to achieve your goals. Don't let your age stand in the way - I don't think it is as big an issue as some would have you believe.
As to the organisation you have mentioned - I think you will find there is more to it than just the amount of spare 'redies' (sic) that you have lying around. I'd suggest that you give them a call & find out some more about their training & ask them much the same questions that you've asked here. As for having 500 hours s/e command time before the program - I think that would make you quite employable on completion of your F/O time, as you'll have plenty of single time & lots of multi engine exposure in high performance a/c. You should be able to find yourself a twin job & have the 500 m/e time to allow you to start looking for a command in a reasonable amount of time.
Irrespective of your levels of experience, there will undoubtably be some GA operators out there that may think that your F/O time is useless (perhaps because they have no experience in that area...
) but that will always be the case - just keep on plugging away at it & you'll eventually succeed.
I hope it all works out well for you. I'd suggest that if you really, really want to do it - go for it! At least you won't die wondering what might have been...
[If you want any further info, feel free to PM me]
I have a good mate who was in much the same position as yourself. He left a professional career to pursue a career in aviation.
He chose the same cadet course that I did, starting as a true ab-initio student with no real prior experience as a fixed wing pilot. Following the completion of the course, he completed his training as a twin otter F/O, eventually doing close to 900 hours on type. Like myself, he was able to move into a job flying twins, and accrued about 1000 hrs of multi command. From there, he applied to virgin blue with ~2000 hrs and was successful.
He has subsequently completed his 737 classic & NG endorsements, and is now a F/O with Virgin. He loves his job & never looks back with regret at his decision to give up his former profession & pursue his dream. He joined another 2 former cadets from the same organisation at Virgin - both of whom joined with similar experience levels. (Currently there are also 5 from the same cadetship at Qantas, with another (hopefully) just waiting for a start date...) All of us worked hard throughout our training, and continued to work hard when we were out on the line.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you really want something & are prepared to put in the hard work, then you will be able to achieve your goals. Don't let your age stand in the way - I don't think it is as big an issue as some would have you believe.
As to the organisation you have mentioned - I think you will find there is more to it than just the amount of spare 'redies' (sic) that you have lying around. I'd suggest that you give them a call & find out some more about their training & ask them much the same questions that you've asked here. As for having 500 hours s/e command time before the program - I think that would make you quite employable on completion of your F/O time, as you'll have plenty of single time & lots of multi engine exposure in high performance a/c. You should be able to find yourself a twin job & have the 500 m/e time to allow you to start looking for a command in a reasonable amount of time.
Irrespective of your levels of experience, there will undoubtably be some GA operators out there that may think that your F/O time is useless (perhaps because they have no experience in that area...
) but that will always be the case - just keep on plugging away at it & you'll eventually succeed.I hope it all works out well for you. I'd suggest that if you really, really want to do it - go for it! At least you won't die wondering what might have been...
[If you want any further info, feel free to PM me]
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What words of wisdom could be given those that may have some piston command time say for example <500hrs that went on such a cadet scheme (multi turbine 18months) and at the end no further offer to continue in that field was avaliable and the person went back off to the piston single/twin scene to try and get work to keep their carreer bubbling away.
However upon arrival would the said person not be looked at by many GA operators as simply filling in time an therefore slightly dissadvantaged?
(I know many wouldnt be surprised that ANY newcomers to the company would eventually try an move to greener pastures, but having the multi crew turbine experience when applying for a S/E piston scenic job be advertising this intention?)
Obviously the results in the prior posts seem to speak for themselves but I couldnt help but wonder if such a risk would likley be encounterd.
Fortunatly(or maybe not) we dont really have any cadetships like that over here so for the time being I wont have to think too much about it.
However upon arrival would the said person not be looked at by many GA operators as simply filling in time an therefore slightly dissadvantaged?
(I know many wouldnt be surprised that ANY newcomers to the company would eventually try an move to greener pastures, but having the multi crew turbine experience when applying for a S/E piston scenic job be advertising this intention?)
Obviously the results in the prior posts seem to speak for themselves but I couldnt help but wonder if such a risk would likley be encounterd.
Fortunatly(or maybe not) we dont really have any cadetships like that over here so for the time being I wont have to think too much about it.
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Thanks
Thanks everybody for your replies. The mate in question has decided to decline the offer and search for topend work. It seems to be a good progam and they would train him to very high standards but he thinks he would be better off seeking command time and I would have to agree with him. The money could be better spent on boosting twin/night/IFR time to make him more employable to most charter operators.
