Skippers lose conquest at mine?

[Lloyd Braun]

Slightly off topic but what is the current pay for a metro f/o and captain at Skippers ?

[YBRM]

Still slightly off the topic, if you work 5 days for the week and have a double on one day to boot, you can earn more than the prime minister !!

Back on the topic, what happened to the crew of this 441 could have happened to anyone, and I'll bet there are many who would have come off a lot worse. The way the "abnormal" was dealt with by this low time pilot was as good as someone whom would have many more thousands of hours.

Don't be fooled by all those numbers in a persons log book - its only an indicator of hours flown, not necessarily a level of someones skill ! This young bloke has more skill than many Captains I've flown with over the years, and experiencing this mishap will just add to his skill level (too bad it wasn't in a simulator!)

Beany6, meet you out the front for a smoke bloke !!!

[Apollo 4]

Lloyd

The Skippers F/O's are on casual award rates for aircraft type. Most only get two days a week and find it necessary to have a second job just to survive.

Last count we had waiters, jigalow, cleaner, chef and a A.M.E. at Jandakot.

YBRM rightly points out if you get a full week you make a packet, but alas the chances of that are sweet F/A.

For the first six weeks with the company you will shell out about 5,000.00 for your training and won't get a cracker back for at least 6 weeks and then it'll be 2 days a week. The line training is great except for when the check & training Captains pi$$ off on leave and leave you waiting to complete check to line.

All in all great place to start but it ain't all it is cracked up to be. Especially waiting by the phone for a call to tell you that tomorrow is the lucky day you can go to work.

Good Luck

[Knackers]

Why does the "jigalow" want to fly?

[Lloyd Braun]

Thanks for the info Apollo.

Is the 6 week training made up of a full time ground course (2 weeks ???) then part time flying as and when available ?

[beany6]

YBRM, sorry cant make it. To busy training that effo on 2 days a week!

Seriously though, July 19 at my place would be a good time!

[YBRM]

Apollo

I know how keen the effo's are to go out flying, but don't forget that they will earn similar money in that 2 days work than they would have working out bush for 6 days straight, living somewhere they probably didn't want to be, flying an airplane that they didn't want to fly, to a place they really couldn't give a hoot about.

Skippers is not the be all and end all for most, but don't forget to appreciate what your doing now. I'll bet there is plenty of ex AN pilots out there who would swap their taxi cab job to get back into an aircraft 2 days a week !!

It could be a lot of a lot worse !!

[Apollo 4]

YBRM

Cold comfort when you are trying to make ends meet..... seems pretty pi$$ poor to have to live in the bush fly planes you don't want, in a place you don't want to be and then when you finally make it into a job where you want to be, in a town where you want to live, and a plane you want to be in you're lucky to get 2 days work casual, no sick days, no annual leave, can't even get a loan.

But to make enough money to live you have to work part time in a job like waiting tables, bars etc which are jobs you don't want to do, in places you don't want to be in.

Whatever happened to full time employment ??

[Grivation]

Now this might seem like a silly question BUT - why do Skippys have so many FO's?

Surely all it equates to for the company would be higher training costs. Or are you required to pay for your own route/base checks as well?

[SmallGlassofPort]

Cold comfort you say to get a job where you want to be etc etc........
You reakon the FO's have another job? Please tell us! You say they cannot get a loan? Just ask the egyptian about his new house!
You are right direct entry Metro FO is a casual position as it has always been. The rest of the company is not, and if I am correct, you sir are acting on old information. Skippers Metro FO's are currently on type for 12 to 18 months before progressing to full time slots on Bras or 441. In fact for the first six months after AN fell over they earned the same as or more than most Captains.

Apollo, Where is your info from?

PS Skippers are based at PH not Jandakot!

[Apollo 4]

Smallglassofport

You sir are out of touch or you are trying to pull a snow job.

The Horney couldn't get a loan with a casual job at Skippers, he had to use a letter from a company who gave him FULL TIME employment, in a place he didn't want to be, in planes he didn't want to fly. And to keep the house he has to find extra work, as well as renting the f##king thing out to strangers.

The reference to Jandakot was in relation to another Skippers F/O working for Swift Aviation as an A.M.E just to make ends meet and keep the wolves from the door.

My question to you is this, if Skippers is so good why do their F/O's need second jobs and by the way are any of these crew recording their duty times to include this extra work ??? Work is work and has to be logged as duty time... or do you advocate a F/O's working all night at a restaurant and then fronting up to fly a metro first thing in the morning????

SGP I believe you sir are the one acting on old information and are really out of touch with what is actually happening at the coal face.

Skippers should front up and give FULL TIME jobs and stop all the exploitation..

[SmallGlassofPort]

Apollo, after much thought I believe that you in your wisdom can save our sad sad deviate souls. After all you are the only one who seems to know better.
Which company do you in your knowledge recommend!
Please remember it must be in Perth, otherwise I would have(and many others) gone to CX.
I know the job is there mission leader, I just await orders!!!!

[Apollo 4]

SGP

Don't shoot the messenger ! Sometimes by being outside the company you get to know and understand more than if you are actually within.

The issue here is that there exists a group of dedicated aspiring young professionals who are doing it tough and for fear of not getting the phone call the night before, feel that they can't speak up. After all they are only casual and have no voice. How do we find out ? through the grape vine as it is the only place where they can have a voice.

Then they have to sit back and watch rampies scoring crew slots with 200 hours in the book. Believe me morale is very low at the casual Skippers camp, despite what appears on the surface.

Sir it also helps when putting a point, to actually know the facts! So please do some home work before trying to shoot someone down.

To rectify the problem, simple give them FULL TIME employment.

Now back to the duty time issue, does Skippers keep a register of second jobs by crew ? nope! are Skippers aware of how many hours their crew are working prior to fronting up for duty? nope! are these crew members complying with best practice fatigue management? nope!

Has CASA asked the question during the audit? nope!

Skippers is in fact a great place to work... but only if you are a full time employee.

[SmallGlassofPort]

Ok Ok, I concede! In a perfect world we would not be considered as we are now. WE WOULD EARN LOTS

Where did we go wrong? Where is horny different to the guy with 15 years experience with AN and they both are struggling for a loan?
Please, we know of QF etc, please help the bulk of us. We want a job in WA and we dont want to compete with guys with 20 to 30 years experience......
It kinda doesnt help the ego yknow!!!
Apollo, whilst they are charter.... they will always be charter... time or perspecitve may change this. But it will be time.....
If you want a RPT slot, try somewhere else....

[Apollo 4]

SGP

Take heart the Skippers I believe will be an airline before the years end. Much work I am told is currently under way to form an alliance with DJ for a code share. Stan is lobbying the Gov to de-regulate the skywest runs now that they are in bed with QF.

When this happens I am sure it will be more economical to have all F/O's on FULL TIME and the unwanted casuals will be looking at dead phones..... (only an opinion you understand)

[the wizard of auz]

Must have been a bugga giving up a full time job with a C90 so close and going on to become a FO, then having to go back to where he started to supliment the meagre sum payed for the odd day here and there. I dunno why people do it. Oh wel thats GA I spose..... glad I aint in it.

[Apollo 4]

WIZ

Are you the wiz of oz west ?

No matter, word is that the C90 gets flogged by the barons and spends more time training than on charter .... 12 hours a month some say!!! would have to be pretty quick barons or f##king slow C90.

[Dale Harris]

Apolla 4, I'd be interested to know why you think Skippers, or any other casual employer in the aviation industry, should control the outside employment of any of their part time employees? Perhaps you could point out where in the CAO's duty time NOT worked on behalf of your aviation employer should be recorded? While I agree that it is stupid and irresponsible to turn up to work when you are tired beyond all reasonable limits, the pilot and the company are not REQUIRED to take outside employment into account by per CAO's. THe whole casual thing needs looking into, but some companies operate that way, quite successfully. In any case, these jobs are usually treated as nothing more than a stepping stone by the vast majority of pilots. Doesn't make it right, but doesn't change it either.

[Apollo 4]

Dale

Wrong! We are required by law to provide a duty of care.

From a purely layman’s point of view there appears to be nothing in the regs / orders etc, however as the Mrs points out (spends most days in court doing this stuff) the legal aspect and implications are far diferrent.

The legal interpretation of CAO 48.0-1.4 implies a responsibility on both the flight crew and the operator not to fly or permit flight if FATIGUE or illness is likely, which may effect the judgement or performance of the Pilot.

How can the operator reasonably assess and demonstrate that assessment whether or not a Pilot is likely to be suffering from fatigue or illness if the operator has no knowledge of the 8 hour shift or the 40 hour week that the Pilot has just performed at Kmart, Hotel, Engineering Shop, Big Mac’s, or Baggage Handling prior to turning up at the airport to fly.

The section reads as below note the word shall = Must.

1.4 Notwithstanding anything contained in these Orders, a flight crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require that person to fly if either the flight crew member is suffering from, or, considering the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, fatigue or illness which may affect judgement or performance to the extent that safety may be impaired.


The Mrs also pointed out that in her expert opinion the word employment throughout the document and in particular under the heading ‘Rest Period’ is not specific to aviation duties and includes all employment.

CA0 48.0 DEFINITIONS

Rest Period means the period of time during which a flight crew member is relieved of all duties associated with his or her EMPLOYMENT.

When you look at the dictionary for the meaning of the word employment, when you look at the legal dictionary for the meaning of the word employment, when you look at the case law applications for the meaning of the word employment, when you look at the Australian Tax Office legal definition of employment and employ those definitions to CAO 48.1 then you will understand the risks you are taking. Employment means all jobs that you do……

In the event of an accident or injury or personal loss the Mrs reckons 90% chance the Operator would be found negligent, in breach of 1.4 and various other sections of the O.H.S.W. act for not providing a safe working environment and failing in its duty of care.

I am also told that the standard INDEMNITY CLAUSE contained in the award may not cover you from civil prosecution as it is most likely to be contested that YOU broke the Regs/Orders and could be possibly seen as a Criminally Negligent Act. Better put the house in the wifes name!!!


(by the way this only an opinion feel free to be the first to be sued or charged and then we might get a little specific case law to follow in future)

[Dale Harris]

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but did I not suggest it to be irresponsible to try to work under those circumstances? The responsibility for that lies with the PILOT first and the company second. Are you trying to tell me that the company, any company, does not know that their casual employees don't work elsewhere? And there you have the answer. I think you will find there is case law to define CAO 48 with regard to what is defined as duty time and non duty time. Enough people have been charged and several convicted on that matter alone....... What an employee does when away from the company, (and while the company IS NOT paying him) is irrelevant, whether he is fit to fly or otherwise is a case by case decision. We have always had a duty of care responsibility, that has not changed in the recent past, except for a recent circumstance that actually held that the victim in this case did NOT exercise a duty of care to himself and was denied compensation as a result. This was not an aviation related matter, however, the fact it was not is irrelevant. Most of the associated precedents for industrial relations, duty of care. OHS and related subjects do NOT come from the aviation sector.
As for being a test case, no test required...........