Women in Aviation???
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Tanua
My observations are that people vary in their level of skill, aptitude and attitude.
While I think that gender plays a part in some general areas, such as me (male) being unable to find the sugar amongst the sweetner (artificial) in the galley today (Mr Woomera Sir, can you see from whence I come?), I don't believe women make better or worse pilots than men.
While I think that gender plays a part in some general areas, such as me (male) being unable to find the sugar amongst the sweetner (artificial) in the galley today (Mr Woomera Sir, can you see from whence I come?), I don't believe women make better or worse pilots than men.
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but....
With relatively few women in the trade it only takes one or two shockers to screw it up for the others. I know one NT outfit that will not consider hiring females for the foreseeable future bacause of one individual, and everyone up here knows who I am talking about. Even the CP(female) at the time loaths this person due to their conduct. It really had nothing to do with gender as such, but left such an indelible mark on everyone, that you have to fight hard your natural instinct to stereotype (or gendertype).
She has really poisoned the chalice for those that wish to follow.
She has really poisoned the chalice for those that wish to follow.
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Just to add my two cents worth : I believe that women are given more OPPORTUNITIES than the men nowadays , but what they do with them comes down to ability, pure and simple.
Have always found that female bosses prefer female workers, and some male bosses will hire females purely for the "eye candy" value.
My missus recently commented to me that a female pilot should NOT be hired to do a job requiring some physical effort, because she wouldn't be able to lift the bags, and that the MALES were making her fail by putting her in this situation!
I must say though, that ANYONE turning on the waterworks has ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT from me! ... do not care WHAT the situation is, there is NEVER a reason to cry over it.
All things said and done, at the end of the day it DOES come down to ability.
Have always found that female bosses prefer female workers, and some male bosses will hire females purely for the "eye candy" value.
My missus recently commented to me that a female pilot should NOT be hired to do a job requiring some physical effort, because she wouldn't be able to lift the bags, and that the MALES were making her fail by putting her in this situation!
I must say though, that ANYONE turning on the waterworks has ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT from me! ... do not care WHAT the situation is, there is NEVER a reason to cry over it.
All things said and done, at the end of the day it DOES come down to ability.
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You can't help but wonder whether the pilots who are so concerned about having a female pilot in the flight deck are simply put out because it restricts their own voyueristic, chauvanistic and sexist behaviour.
Or could it be these particular pilots are not up to scratch themselves and looking to boost their ego's by taking someone else (whom perhaps they feel threatened by) down a peg or two?
Neither men or women are exempt from being bad pilots - or good ones for that matter.
Or could it be these particular pilots are not up to scratch themselves and looking to boost their ego's by taking someone else (whom perhaps they feel threatened by) down a peg or two?
Neither men or women are exempt from being bad pilots - or good ones for that matter.
Last edited by echohotel; 14th Mar 2003 at 10:25.
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gay pilots???
Notlandung - I can't believe you wrote it!!!
"Never heard of a professional pilot who was gay"
Ansett had a least 3 and I am friends with an ex Ansett Flight Attendant (male) who is in a relationship with a gay (male) Qantas pilot.
Now, pick yourself up off the floor
"Never heard of a professional pilot who was gay"
Ansett had a least 3 and I am friends with an ex Ansett Flight Attendant (male) who is in a relationship with a gay (male) Qantas pilot.
Now, pick yourself up off the floor
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My personel opinion is that if you have the skills, temperament and enthusiasm, this is what will get you those big jobs. Those who use the "furry resume" (either gender) and those who give the big jobs based on the "furry resume" are a danger to the aviation industry.
I was taught to fly by a women who was both very skillful, a great instructor and a great person to boot. I have flown many hours with her and with other male pilots with huge TT and I would definately back her knowledge and capabilities to some of those male pilots.
I was taught to fly by a women who was both very skillful, a great instructor and a great person to boot. I have flown many hours with her and with other male pilots with huge TT and I would definately back her knowledge and capabilities to some of those male pilots.
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What about anti-female attitudes that appear to be systemic within an organisation making the playing field not only tilted towards male pilots but downright embarrrasing towards female pilots.
Anyone here seen the CD put out by CASA in May 2002 called In-Flight Decision Making? It is probably aimed at the trainee pilot or the newly licenced pilot. The CD has a section which has a scenario of a problem with an aircraft (Chieftain) and two different pilots tackling the problem. The male pilot is called Mike (a good solid reliable anglo-saxon name) and the female pilot is called Chantelle (They might as well have put her in a bikini, given her a French accent and enormous boobs). Both these pilots are shown problem solving and, of course, Mike is wonderful, does all the right things, is sensible, intelligent and practical whereas Bambi- sorry Chantelle makes all the wrong decisions backed up by all the wrong thought processes. In other words she's a dill. How she ever got her licence in the first place would have to be questioned.
The problem being all those young male pilots will see this and think that all female pilots are like this and so the discrimination is furthered by our own regulator. Not only that, all these young male pilots will assume that they are better than female pilots and this may lead to Instructional or CRM problems later on.
I do not suggest that Mike be the idiot but perhaps there should have been two male pilots so one could look bad and one could look good.
I have emailed both CASA and The Hon. John Anderson requesting that this CD be withdrawn from distribution but I have had no reply.
I have spoken with AOPA who were not interested and suggested
I take it to the Women Pilots Association - not good enough.
You may think this is a small thing, something trivial but this is the precise way that discrimination is perpetuated. Sometimes the more subtle it is the more effective it is.
Anyone here seen the CD put out by CASA in May 2002 called In-Flight Decision Making? It is probably aimed at the trainee pilot or the newly licenced pilot. The CD has a section which has a scenario of a problem with an aircraft (Chieftain) and two different pilots tackling the problem. The male pilot is called Mike (a good solid reliable anglo-saxon name) and the female pilot is called Chantelle (They might as well have put her in a bikini, given her a French accent and enormous boobs). Both these pilots are shown problem solving and, of course, Mike is wonderful, does all the right things, is sensible, intelligent and practical whereas Bambi- sorry Chantelle makes all the wrong decisions backed up by all the wrong thought processes. In other words she's a dill. How she ever got her licence in the first place would have to be questioned.
The problem being all those young male pilots will see this and think that all female pilots are like this and so the discrimination is furthered by our own regulator. Not only that, all these young male pilots will assume that they are better than female pilots and this may lead to Instructional or CRM problems later on.
I do not suggest that Mike be the idiot but perhaps there should have been two male pilots so one could look bad and one could look good.
I have emailed both CASA and The Hon. John Anderson requesting that this CD be withdrawn from distribution but I have had no reply.
I have spoken with AOPA who were not interested and suggested
I take it to the Women Pilots Association - not good enough.
You may think this is a small thing, something trivial but this is the precise way that discrimination is perpetuated. Sometimes the more subtle it is the more effective it is.
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as a pilot and as a father of a little girl who loves aeroplanes I say all the best to all female pilots and the only blokes who critisize you are the ones who are threatend by you
spell check please
spell check please
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Uh, Skychaser are you a female pilot? As one myself I didn't really have a problem with it (I mean gender inequality was hardly what I was keeping my beady little eyes out for), and I have yet to hear another female pilot bag the CD. I mean there are more than enough men portrayed as dills in training videos, CDs and DVDs. If women truly want equality then we have to accept that we also have to take our place amongst the "this is the wrong way" examples. Otherwise we would be insisting on a type of equality which is again, completely false (I mean like guys we are only human, so portraying us as smug little smarties who always show the guys how it is really done isn't exactly a picture of reality is it?). And again, it's adding to the argument that women are always given special treatment.
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Realistic Video
Skychaser, perhaps CASA wanted to make the video as realistic as possible. In my experience, almost all the women I have witnessed flying Chieftains behave in the manner described by your video. However only some of the men behave in the same manner.
And let me say that I have the greatest admiration for any woman who can handle an aircraft with confidence. I have noticed that those that can hold those that can't with contempt.
The comments of Foyl are typical of those that can.
And let me say that I have the greatest admiration for any woman who can handle an aircraft with confidence. I have noticed that those that can hold those that can't with contempt.
The comments of Foyl are typical of those that can.
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Foyl, I am fully aware that amongst the much smaller population of female pilots there are some dills just as our Chantelle in the CD was and we all are aware that there are male pilots who are dills also. All professions have good and bad exponents, whether male or female but that is not my the concern I have with this CD.
To show a female who is a bad pilot against a male who is a good pilot in a widely distributed training or information CD put out by the Regulator is just not on. Whether CASA likes it or not it doesn't just write a whole lot of rules and regs and then try and administer them it also sets attitutudes. If it didn't want to set attitudes then CASA wouldn't release CDs, Videos, DVDs or books on any subject. CASA wants to set attitudes to safety, obeying the rules and regs, good training etc etc. In the CD I am talking about it sets an attitude to female pilots by pitting a female pilot who is bad against the marvellous Mike who can do no wrong. As I said 2 male pilots would have made the situation benign but having MIke and Chantelle is just plain discriminatory, retrogressive and thoughtless. The men who put this CD together and obviously thought that using Mike and Chantelle in those particular roles was very amusing need to have a close look at themselves. They're the type that are probably still telling jokes about black people and thinking they're funny.
To show a female who is a bad pilot against a male who is a good pilot in a widely distributed training or information CD put out by the Regulator is just not on. Whether CASA likes it or not it doesn't just write a whole lot of rules and regs and then try and administer them it also sets attitutudes. If it didn't want to set attitudes then CASA wouldn't release CDs, Videos, DVDs or books on any subject. CASA wants to set attitudes to safety, obeying the rules and regs, good training etc etc. In the CD I am talking about it sets an attitude to female pilots by pitting a female pilot who is bad against the marvellous Mike who can do no wrong. As I said 2 male pilots would have made the situation benign but having MIke and Chantelle is just plain discriminatory, retrogressive and thoughtless. The men who put this CD together and obviously thought that using Mike and Chantelle in those particular roles was very amusing need to have a close look at themselves. They're the type that are probably still telling jokes about black people and thinking they're funny.
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skychaser
From your last post it seems you are assuming that the boy v girl with boy better than girl was a conscious decision.
You may well be correct but then again, it wouldn't be the first time that the desired effect was lost because the designer knew so clearly what s/he was setting out to achieve that s/he couldn't see the product the way others do.
You may well be correct but then again, it wouldn't be the first time that the desired effect was lost because the designer knew so clearly what s/he was setting out to achieve that s/he couldn't see the product the way others do.
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Sorry Skychaser but I think your argument is based on some assumptions. How do you know that the people behind the CD are male? How do you know that discimination is endemic in the organisation? How do you know that they find racist jokes funny? How do you know that the next CD produced won't have the girl doing all the right things and the guy doing all the wrong things?
I cannot see any deliberate attempt to cause offence, and I feel that arguing on these issues only creates the artificial level playing field that many other women are now trying very hard to get away from because it engenders it's own form of discrimination.
You have the right to protest to the minister, and if you feel it is necessary you don't need my permission to go ahead. I just don't happen to agree with you, and was stating why.
I cannot see any deliberate attempt to cause offence, and I feel that arguing on these issues only creates the artificial level playing field that many other women are now trying very hard to get away from because it engenders it's own form of discrimination.
You have the right to protest to the minister, and if you feel it is necessary you don't need my permission to go ahead. I just don't happen to agree with you, and was stating why.
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Skychaser just out of curiosity I just had a look at the CD.
Did you ever consider that "Chantelle" might actually be a real pilot herself who just participated in the CD? That has been known to happen, in which case you might give some thought to your rather personal comments about her in your posting.
Regarding your statment re "endemic" gender bias, I seem to recall that the year befor last(?) there was a video clip shown at the CASA annual conference regarding the use of electronic planning programs. In that CD the older male pilot adhered to the good old paper and fax method of flight planning, where the younger woman pilot used her laptop to plan and submit via the internet, which was promoted as a smarter and faster way of flight planning.
I also haven't heard any other women pilots make a complaint about the CD. If you are still concerned, you might consider actually giving Andrew Warland-Brown at CASA Aviation Safety Promotion an email or call to express your concerns, his details are on the CD case.
But I have to say, as another fem flyer, I'm with Foyl on this one.
Did you ever consider that "Chantelle" might actually be a real pilot herself who just participated in the CD? That has been known to happen, in which case you might give some thought to your rather personal comments about her in your posting.
Regarding your statment re "endemic" gender bias, I seem to recall that the year befor last(?) there was a video clip shown at the CASA annual conference regarding the use of electronic planning programs. In that CD the older male pilot adhered to the good old paper and fax method of flight planning, where the younger woman pilot used her laptop to plan and submit via the internet, which was promoted as a smarter and faster way of flight planning.
I also haven't heard any other women pilots make a complaint about the CD. If you are still concerned, you might consider actually giving Andrew Warland-Brown at CASA Aviation Safety Promotion an email or call to express your concerns, his details are on the CD case.
But I have to say, as another fem flyer, I'm with Foyl on this one.
Last edited by VictorBravo; 3rd Mar 2003 at 06:56.
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I say good luck to Chantelle (french girls with big boobs are great- 
hang on.. all women with big boobs are great... oops I think I'm going to get a bashing for this one...sorry couldn't resist 
)
On a serious note though, you can't go worrying about what other people are doing or not doing in order to get ahead in the industry. Its just part of life. Nothing will ever change it.
hang on.. all women with big boobs are great... oops I think I'm going to get a bashing for this one...sorry couldn't resist )On a serious note though, you can't go worrying about what other people are doing or not doing in order to get ahead in the industry. Its just part of life. Nothing will ever change it.
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Funny the attitude of some people in the industry...most employers are male and do only employ males for some reason or another. I have flown with both types, furry and non-furry types and I have to say it has always been a fifty-fifty split - as many guys I have flown with are as incompentent as half the females. It all comes down to the person and their ability...flying ability is not related to the ability to stand up and pee.
One thing is for sure, females have never been stupid in the air when I have flown with them, neither have they been willing to take a risk. As for us guys, I know plenty of them who are just plain stupid and farking dangerous....and they still get jobs, even though they take risks they REALLY shouldn't.
One thing is for sure, females have never been stupid in the air when I have flown with them, neither have they been willing to take a risk. As for us guys, I know plenty of them who are just plain stupid and farking dangerous....and they still get jobs, even though they take risks they REALLY shouldn't.
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"It all comes down to the person and their ability...flying ability is not related to the ability to stand up and pee. "
Well DD, I sure I am not the only guy that has met a girl that can do that!
I used to think that men were better "hands on" fliers than women but lately I am starting to think that this is far from the truth.
But never the less if there are any "furry" log books out there willing to be inspected please let me know!!!
If there any lady bosses that need a "hard" worker then please state your starting salary and equipment!!
Well DD, I sure I am not the only guy that has met a girl that can do that!
I used to think that men were better "hands on" fliers than women but lately I am starting to think that this is far from the truth.
But never the less if there are any "furry" log books out there willing to be inspected please let me know!!!
If there any lady bosses that need a "hard" worker then please state your starting salary and equipment!!
