Does a company pilot require an AOC?
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Does a company pilot require an AOC?
The much dreaded, very grey question of:
If i work for a non-aviation related company who hire out a plane and get me to fly them to and from job sites, does the company (or me) require an AOC? Would i be able to say i am a company pilot, or am i doing the flying outside of my duties/responsibilities of my employee contract?
This question is being asked by someone who has spent many sleepless nights, down rabbit holes on the internet, trying to get to the bottom of this.
All advice, experience and stories. please share
If i work for a non-aviation related company who hire out a plane and get me to fly them to and from job sites, does the company (or me) require an AOC? Would i be able to say i am a company pilot, or am i doing the flying outside of my duties/responsibilities of my employee contract?
This question is being asked by someone who has spent many sleepless nights, down rabbit holes on the internet, trying to get to the bottom of this.
All advice, experience and stories. please share
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I can’t comment on the CASA rules but in simple terms, here in U.K. you certainly need a CPL but unless the company you fly for sells seat tickets you wouldn’t need an AOC.
I hope this is of some help.
I hope this is of some help.
My understanding is that it’s private category if you’re doing work purely for the company that employs you ie if you were employed by a station and you’re flying around station staff from A - B or chasing cattle etc.
If said station then offers tourists scenic flights for a cost or crew shuttles for the nearby mine staff for hire or reward etc that would then fall under commercial….?
If said station then offers tourists scenic flights for a cost or crew shuttles for the nearby mine staff for hire or reward etc that would then fall under commercial….?
My personal opinion is that company A as the owner of the aircraft and employer of the pilot is conducting a charter operation to company B and in which case requires an AOC.
UNLESS it is a conglomerate of companies, for example Company A is the owner and operator of the aircraft and company A owns a controlling interest 51% in those companies for which it operates, company B, C, D making it a private operation wholly within that company group. The pilot must be employed by company A and hold at least a commercial licence. It comes down to who has operational control where the pilot is not the owner of the aircraft,
UNLESS it is a conglomerate of companies, for example Company A is the owner and operator of the aircraft and company A owns a controlling interest 51% in those companies for which it operates, company B, C, D making it a private operation wholly within that company group. The pilot must be employed by company A and hold at least a commercial licence. It comes down to who has operational control where the pilot is not the owner of the aircraft,
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Asking some pointed questions here (don't be offended):
What licence do you hold?
How many hours logged?
You work for a non-aviation company which wants to make use of your licence?
If the answers to the first two are Private Licence and 400 hours, then the company is placing little value on its people they send off with you, and is too cheap to pay a Commercially qualified pilot to fly.
What licence do you hold?
How many hours logged?
You work for a non-aviation company which wants to make use of your licence?
If the answers to the first two are Private Licence and 400 hours, then the company is placing little value on its people they send off with you, and is too cheap to pay a Commercially qualified pilot to fly.
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A rather ambiguous question.........
"who hire out a plane" - hire out to whom, an unrelated third party? And that third party pays an hourly rate or per seat price to use the aircraft or capacity in the aircraft? If so, air charter requiring an AOC.
Or do you mean your employer hires an aircraft which you fly as a company employee in order to carry the goods and staff only of your employer? If so, private operation.
If i work for a non-aviation related company who hire out a plane and get me to fly them to and from job sites, does the company (or me) require an AOC? Would i be able to say i am a company pilot, or am i doing the flying outside of my duties/responsibilities of my employee contract?
"who hire out a plane" - hire out to whom, an unrelated third party? And that third party pays an hourly rate or per seat price to use the aircraft or capacity in the aircraft? If so, air charter requiring an AOC.
Or do you mean your employer hires an aircraft which you fly as a company employee in order to carry the goods and staff only of your employer? If so, private operation.
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I'd suggest reading this thread because it's the roller coaster ride through what could be the relevant rules. Maybe...
A rather ambiguous question.........
"who hire out a plane" - hire out to whom, an unrelated third party? And that third party pays an hourly rate or per seat price to use the aircraft or capacity in the aircraft? If so, air charter requiring an AOC.
Or do you mean your employer hires an aircraft which you fly as a company employee in order to carry the goods and staff only of your employer? If so, private operation.
"who hire out a plane" - hire out to whom, an unrelated third party? And that third party pays an hourly rate or per seat price to use the aircraft or capacity in the aircraft? If so, air charter requiring an AOC.
Or do you mean your employer hires an aircraft which you fly as a company employee in order to carry the goods and staff only of your employer? If so, private operation.
So, if I am running a small charter company, and someone walks in the door:
”I want to hire an aircraft from you. “
”That’s what we do, aircraft and pilot will be $400 per day plus $300 per hour, the pilot will be CPL qualified, the operation will be under our AOC and you’ll be covered by our insurance. “
”No, I want to use our own pilot. “
”Hmm, we can probably do that. We’ll have to check them, approve them under our ops manual, and charge you for that, assuming they pass. That’s all required by our insurance and AOC“
“No, I just want the aircraft, I’ll deal with the rest. “
”Ah, you don’t want to hire an aircraft. You want to lease one. That will require a guarantee for the value of the aircraft over the lease rate, but after that, yes you will be liable for insurance, maintenance and finding someone to pilot it. If the people and goods you are transporting are all connected to you and not paying, it’s a Private operation and the pilot can be a PPL”
”I want to hire an aircraft from you. “
”That’s what we do, aircraft and pilot will be $400 per day plus $300 per hour, the pilot will be CPL qualified, the operation will be under our AOC and you’ll be covered by our insurance. “
”No, I want to use our own pilot. “
”Hmm, we can probably do that. We’ll have to check them, approve them under our ops manual, and charge you for that, assuming they pass. That’s all required by our insurance and AOC“
“No, I just want the aircraft, I’ll deal with the rest. “
”Ah, you don’t want to hire an aircraft. You want to lease one. That will require a guarantee for the value of the aircraft over the lease rate, but after that, yes you will be liable for insurance, maintenance and finding someone to pilot it. If the people and goods you are transporting are all connected to you and not paying, it’s a Private operation and the pilot can be a PPL”
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The only 3 stakeholders in this situation would be:
1. Me (An entry level pilot looking for the first job) (CPL(A) with 200TT). Ascend Charlie, not to offend you back, but entry level CPL jobs can be tricky to find, and this could be a great opportunity if done right.
2. Some start up company that wants to hire me as a company pilot to fly them around
3. The local aircraft hire company that only provides the aircraft, you pay them after the flight based on VDO or airswitch, fuel charges, air services etc.
Company 2 will not be selling seats to anyone else, this is strictly for the company to get around throughout the day.
Some key areas I identified that are problematic are:
1. Companies go ahead and do the private flying, but land themselves in a courtroom against CASA. 9/10 times they are able to prove that it is indeed a private operation, but it still does take away from the fact that they had to walk into a courtroom. No one wants that in the first place for a variety of reasons.
2. As Xeptu has identified, insurance becomes a bit of an issue, given that the operation is classified as private. Has anyone got any experience with insurance, in relation to company pilot operations without an AOC? im curious.
3. In my opinion, these sorts of operations should not be subject to requiring an AOC. It is unreasonable for sole pilots to obtain one, and by the time you are operational 12 months down the track with an AOC, many opportunities have passed and you are officially broke.
4. For a startup company (Not a mining company, not a corporation, not a politician) , that initially does not have many clients, leasing/owning an aircraft may not make sense, as their just trying to find their footing. And we forget that aviation can be incredibility daunting. And by the time a hypothetical charter company has been paid, they've made no money left. So how can the costs go down further than that? (it wouldnt).
The conclusion i have come to so far, after falling down pprune rabbit holes and speaking to a few operators for the last few weeks is to as CASA love to say, take an approved method of action ie. Contact an aviation specialist/law firm. Get them to establish the company, write up the contracts, write up the duties and responsibilities. Establish the payment of employees, insurance etc etc.
Thoughts?
1. Me (An entry level pilot looking for the first job) (CPL(A) with 200TT). Ascend Charlie, not to offend you back, but entry level CPL jobs can be tricky to find, and this could be a great opportunity if done right.
2. Some start up company that wants to hire me as a company pilot to fly them around
3. The local aircraft hire company that only provides the aircraft, you pay them after the flight based on VDO or airswitch, fuel charges, air services etc.
Company 2 will not be selling seats to anyone else, this is strictly for the company to get around throughout the day.
Some key areas I identified that are problematic are:
1. Companies go ahead and do the private flying, but land themselves in a courtroom against CASA. 9/10 times they are able to prove that it is indeed a private operation, but it still does take away from the fact that they had to walk into a courtroom. No one wants that in the first place for a variety of reasons.
2. As Xeptu has identified, insurance becomes a bit of an issue, given that the operation is classified as private. Has anyone got any experience with insurance, in relation to company pilot operations without an AOC? im curious.
3. In my opinion, these sorts of operations should not be subject to requiring an AOC. It is unreasonable for sole pilots to obtain one, and by the time you are operational 12 months down the track with an AOC, many opportunities have passed and you are officially broke.
4. For a startup company (Not a mining company, not a corporation, not a politician) , that initially does not have many clients, leasing/owning an aircraft may not make sense, as their just trying to find their footing. And we forget that aviation can be incredibility daunting. And by the time a hypothetical charter company has been paid, they've made no money left. So how can the costs go down further than that? (it wouldnt).
The conclusion i have come to so far, after falling down pprune rabbit holes and speaking to a few operators for the last few weeks is to as CASA love to say, take an approved method of action ie. Contact an aviation specialist/law firm. Get them to establish the company, write up the contracts, write up the duties and responsibilities. Establish the payment of employees, insurance etc etc.
Thoughts?
Moderator
The only 3 stakeholders in this situation would be:
1. Me (An entry level pilot looking for the first job) (CPL(A) with 200TT). Ascend Charlie, not to offend you back, but entry level CPL jobs can be tricky to find, and this could be a great opportunity if done right.
2. Some start up company that wants to hire me as a company pilot to fly them around
3. The local aircraft hire company that only provides the aircraft, you pay them after the flight based on VDO or airswitch, fuel charges, air services etc.
1. Me (An entry level pilot looking for the first job) (CPL(A) with 200TT). Ascend Charlie, not to offend you back, but entry level CPL jobs can be tricky to find, and this could be a great opportunity if done right.
2. Some start up company that wants to hire me as a company pilot to fly them around
3. The local aircraft hire company that only provides the aircraft, you pay them after the flight based on VDO or airswitch, fuel charges, air services etc.
As some one mentioned above, if you ask three CASA employees the category of operation you will get at least four different answers, with a fair chance none would be correct. When the "new" CASR's and the other manuals etc required exceeded the aircraft payload, I lost interest in keeping up.
Some years ago CASA decided the Veterinarian who owns an aircraft and flies himself in the course of his work with his tools of trade, would be aerial work, requiring an AOC and a commercial pilot license. Ditto the outback mechanic, electrician etc. Many years ago there was a case of a photographer in Far North Queensland who owned a small aircraft and took photos of properties and sold the photos. CASA decided he needed an Aerial Work AOC and a CPL pilot/Chief Pilot. CASA took him to Court and won.
I am no longer familiar with the new Regulations and Orders but I believe what you outline above now constitutes a private operation.
Insurance may be an issue but if you private hire from a private owner or a flying school, whilst you hold a current CPL I don't believe there would be any insurance issues but the aircraft owner may need to nominate you as pilot on the insurance.
And remember, PPRuNe is just "the internet" not CASA. Any opinions expressed may be spot on or a load of bull sh*t. Caveat Emptor.
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I can’t believe any sane company owner would let their employees fly with a 200 hour CPL.
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I can’t believe any sane company owner would let their employees fly with a 200 hour CPL.
60 years ago Qantas sent their cadets to PNG to fly SE aircraft for local PNG operators in far more hostile country, with little more than the bare minimums. Most survived and went on to long professional flying careers.
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Absolutely Tail Wheel, if CASA were indeed reliable, there wouldnt be forums like this discussing it endlessly with no actual conclusion. Because the laws around this are structured like that. I also heard from a fairy that sometimes regulators make grey laws like this, to allow you to complete operations like this, given you've set it up correctly. But who knows at this point, and please dont take that in writing, ever...
CASA should really consider providing guidance material on this topic. It would save alot of time, headache, money and stress. And it would provide a source for companies to directly refer to, to let them know immediately if what they were doing was right or wrong. Then bring the companies that continue to bend or break the law straight to court.
Just my 2 cents.
Insurance from what i understand will vary company to company. But even outside of that, buisness insurance may pose an issue. Something to look more into.
Squawk 7700: Maybe you should bring that forward with the many outback operators that hire pilots, with those minimums on their charter operations.
CASA should really consider providing guidance material on this topic. It would save alot of time, headache, money and stress. And it would provide a source for companies to directly refer to, to let them know immediately if what they were doing was right or wrong. Then bring the companies that continue to bend or break the law straight to court.
Just my 2 cents.
Insurance from what i understand will vary company to company. But even outside of that, buisness insurance may pose an issue. Something to look more into.
Squawk 7700: Maybe you should bring that forward with the many outback operators that hire pilots, with those minimums on their charter operations.
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Correct, small GA aircraft like tailwheel mentioned, VFR, just like the training navigation flights, but now with passengers
I thought that was the whole point of getting your CPL, so you could start small with the required knowledge and experience and work your way up. That was just a reckless comment Squawk7700.
I just never considered this to be an issue while I was doing my training. To even have a couple of mates up in the air with me for a fun flight, who'd like to cover all the costs, is considered illegal. I should've thought ahead and applied for an AOC during RPL training!
I thought that was the whole point of getting your CPL, so you could start small with the required knowledge and experience and work your way up. That was just a reckless comment Squawk7700.
I just never considered this to be an issue while I was doing my training. To even have a couple of mates up in the air with me for a fun flight, who'd like to cover all the costs, is considered illegal. I should've thought ahead and applied for an AOC during RPL training!
Have you read through the link I posted at #9?
You've effectively asked whether your 'arrangement' would be a private operation. That question is 'done to death' - with actual answers from the actual CASA - at the link I posted at #9.
If you haven't read (and understood) that thread, you're either taking the p155 or p155ing into the wind.
You've effectively asked whether your 'arrangement' would be a private operation. That question is 'done to death' - with actual answers from the actual CASA - at the link I posted at #9.
If you haven't read (and understood) that thread, you're either taking the p155 or p155ing into the wind.