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61.040 to FER?? Questions!!

Old 8th Feb 2024, 12:04
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61.040 to FER?? Questions!!

I hold a 61.040 approval to conduct check and training activities (IPC/OPC etc) within a Part 135 organisation. I know CASA has a pathway for 61.040 approval holders to transition their approval into a Flight Examiner Rating. I also know that the CASA requirements in CASR 61.1310 are basically 'just hold the appropriate training endorsement on an FIR', however in the FER application form they include a whole bunch of other 'desirable experience requirements'

For MEA:
1. Hold a flight instructor rating with class rating training endorsement (multi-engine class)*

2. Have at least 250 hours flight time training applicants for either; the multi-engine aeroplane class rating or an instrument rating in a multi-engine aircraft, or a combination of the these activities

3. Have at least 500 hours as pilot in command of multiengine aeroplanes


For IR:
1. Hold a pilot instructor rating with an instrument rating training endorsement in the relevant category of aircraft*

2. Have 100 hours of instrument time as PIC which may include up to 20 hours instrument time in a flight simulation training device

3. The instrument rating training endorsement must have been held for at least three years OR for flight testing endorsements limited to simulator operations (CASR 61.1318) - you must have extensive experience as a Check Pilot within a training and checking organisation

4. Have conducted at least 500 hours of instruction under the IFR for an instrument rating which may include 200 hours instructing in a flight simulation training device OR for flight testing endorsements limited to simulator operations (CASR 61.1318) - you must have extensive experience as a Check Pilot within a training and checking organisation

*Note
It is mandatory that an applicant holds the requirements for the relevant flight examiner endorsement listed in column 3 of table 61.1310 of CASR Part 61. Those requirements are marked with an Asterix (*) in this section. Additionally, when receiving an application for an examiner endorsement, CASA will review the applicant’s relevant and necessary aviation related experience. The mandatory flight crew qualifications and expected experience that are used as a guide to assess suitability for each flight examiner endorsement are detailed below.


Now my question, as someone who has only exercised the privileges of my FIR (MEA & IR Endorsements) within a check & training environment in the Part 135 organisation I'm currently employed in how successful would I be in converting my 61.040 approval into a FER? Given I don't meet the 250 hours of flight training for the multi-class rating and 500 hours of flight training for the instrument rating?

Cheers!

Gerald Garrett is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2024, 12:56
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The only people who can answer that is the CASA flight testing office.
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 12:39
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Seems like its a case by case basis. I've heard of a few people getting FER IR with significantly less than the 250/500 but with significant experience doing Part 135 T&C (no 61.040 though). These people did have some experience delviering multi-engine class rating and instrument rating training under a Part 141/142 organization though, but no-where near the 250/500.

Not sure about the case of zero Part 141 time though, but there have to be quite a few people in this boat across the industry - people with strong T&C background and obviously capable of assessing IPC skillset, but without any experience training the initial basic skillset to green pilots. Would be great if they spliced off the IPC as a seperate thing, would make the argument for giving FER for that a heck of a lot easier than also having them need to assess initial flight test capability as well.
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 10:27
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Originally Posted by evilducky
Seems like its a case by case basis. I've heard of a few people getting FER IR with significantly less than the 250/500 but with significant experience doing Part 135 T&C (no 61.040 though). These people did have some experience delviering multi-engine class rating and instrument rating training under a Part 141/142 organization though, but no-where near the 250/500.

Not sure about the case of zero Part 141 time though, but there have to be quite a few people in this boat across the industry - people with strong T&C background and obviously capable of assessing IPC skillset, but without any experience training the initial basic skillset to green pilots. Would be great if they spliced off the IPC as a seperate thing, would make the argument for giving FER for that a heck of a lot easier than also having them need to assess initial flight test capability as well.
Interesting, I've heard of a few airline guys with zero 141/142 time getting their internal training and checking approvals converted to a Part 61 FER.

It's quite annoying how CASA has the set 'Minimum Requirements' but actually may also require more.

Another thing they don't take into account is the time spent as a 'supervisory pilot' conducting line training for new pilots within the organisation, CASA have said that no training is to be conducted on these flights and if training is required then to refer the candidate to the HOTAC, However in a small/medium P135 organisation its just not practical for this and the 'supervisory' ends up conducting training that's legally out of their scope of the job role.

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Old 11th Feb 2024, 11:01
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From what I've heard they do give consideration to time as a 'supervisory pilot' in the context of an approved training and checking prorgram (old CAR 217 / CASR 119/121/135 now). CASR 135 MOS specifically talks about 'Training Pilots' as being able to deliver initial training sequences, supervise line training, command from RHS, etc., in whatever structure the operator's exposition specifies. Eventual progression to checking, and anecdotally it seems like CASA wants these people to have a pathway to FER and are willing to facilitate.

The only explicitly regulated minimum for FER IR is holding FIR IR. From there its just a matter of convincing the right people that you're capable and safe.
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 12:04
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Reminds me of a thread a year ago or so in which a Military Instructor took CASA to court as they would grant him a flight instructor rating - and lost the case.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 10:21
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Given I don't meet the 250 hours of flight training for the multi-class rating and 500 hours of flight training for the instrument rating?
They were tight on these quals when a, arrgh, friend of mine applied for MEA Class testing a while back. I think CASA see two quals as more important than the others, FIR testing as they are the gatekeepers and MEA Class testing as they don't want to see people die.

There have been recent-ish changes on the 61-FER application form, might pay to have a closer look, see if it has changed for your circumstance.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 10:23
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Interesting, I've heard of a few airline guys with zero 141/142 time getting their internal training and checking approvals converted to a Part 61 FER.
​​​​​​​mmm, I've heard that airline guys are actually doing the FER course, no conversions.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 10:35
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Originally Posted by Hoosten
There have been recent-ish changes on the 61-FER application form, might pay to have a closer look, see if it has changed for your circumstance.
Some clarification?

Originally Posted by Hoosten
mmm, I've heard that airline guys are actually doing the FER course, no conversions.
Doing the whole course, sure. but many of them dont meet the 250/500 hour requirement.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 10:43
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Originally Posted by Checkboard
Reminds me of a thread a year ago or so in which a Military Instructor took CASA to court as they would grant him a flight instructor rating - and lost the case.
Ehhh, somewhat different. CASA actually have a pathway for 61.040 approval holders to obtain a Examiner Rating.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 09:59
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Some clarification?
I can't tell you exactly when this one changed but to get the CPL testing endorsement you had to have extensive experience testing RPL/PPL. Now: "Have extensive experience conducting flight tests or syllabus assessments for the RPL and PPL"

I don't know if any other requirements have changed on 61-FER as they haven't been my focus. I know of some rare exceptions to the experience requirements, but, they've been granted to very experienced FER's, not candidates going for a first endo.
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