The Reality of Seeking a First GA Charter Job
Thread Starter
The Reality of Seeking a First GA Charter Job
Okay I don't want to seem like a Debbie Downer for anyone wanting to pursue aviation as a career but, you need to know just how tough getting that FIRST GA job is. Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth but, I'm in the "trenches" having done my second "wet" up North in the middle of nowhere with aboriginals breaking into my neighbours house once a week (it seems)... still waiting for that elusive ""golden ticket" into the industry via GA.
I haven't been successful finding a GA job so I guess I have failed this mission and want to share my story.
I've completed all my training (CPL, ME IR, ATPL "theory credit", FIR G3, 430 hrs TT). Self funded no silver spoons, no VET fee help. Working jobs, saving and swiping my credit card against every single hour logged in my logbook. I spent time in Namibia looking for bush flying work and no luck there so returned to Oz, trekked to Alice. Got a rental. Tried not to get stabbed at night and did the rounds at all the operators. Was there for a few months - met some pilots and did the whole networking thing. Decided it was time to leave Alice after waking up to someone having set fire to a mattress in my front lawn. If anyone has lived in Alice, you know that scoring a flying job here means putting your life on the line (literally!). Never go out at night! Ventured up to Katherine and stayed there for 2-3 months in a temporary rental. Explored the area, met the few operators that are based there. Again, the crime wave is rampant in Katherine (following the only highway up from Alice). The crime in Katherine is not as bad as Alice but it's still bad. Soldiered up to Darwin and stayed in a hostel for almost 2 months while sticking my head into the operators. Met a few pilots at Shenanigans and it's great (very social)- but for every 1 entry level C210 job that pops up here every now and a blue moon, there's 50-60 pilots waiting to jump on it. Moved out of said hostel and into a caravan park while rinsing and repeating the same behaviour month after month (door knocking, shaking hands, "being friendly", etc) without coming across as a desperate loser. I shot across to Broome (stayed in a hostel for 2 weeks) and then returned to Darwin.
After 12 months of "bouncing around" and settling in to different places for a few months at a time, I decided to get the coveted FIR G3 to try and crack the instructor market. Boy oh boy, it's just as tough! I've come to learn (after finishing) that nobody wants a G3 unless you've had a "gentleman's agreement" with a HOO or CP that they are likely to employ you after you finish the course. I messed up and felt like I wasted almost $25,000 in savings which I earned while working as a labourer. I recently did the IPC which again, waste of money but need to keep all these expensive licence add-ons up-to-date!!
It's also very disheartening when the occasional 23 year old waltzes past you with sub 200 hours and gets a job on the 210 because they are the son of the x who knows xyz. I must say that looking for a GA job is much harder than any flight test or theory exam I've ever done. Nobody really talks about how gruelling it is. Sitting and waiting around for the phone to ring. Sleeping in hostels and caravan parks, or driving through flood waters in the wet season up here to try and catch a CP, or realising that you are just one of dozens of freshly minted CPL'ers on the exact same train as you. Needless to say, almost all the kids floating around up here are on over $100,000 dollars in student loan debt and most of them (90% I'd say), won't find a job in this industry. Just because I see first hand the lack of jobs vs the demand. In a way, I'm lucky because I've used my savings but it's still almost $100,000 spent (over 4 years of self study and saving as a labourer). When I drop into an operator up here once a month or so, I ask them 'how many emails do you get a week for jobs' and their response is something like 100-200!! In person, a half dozen resumes get dropped off at some of these operators every day or so. Obviously you should NEVER email because nobody is going to read it and if they do, it will just get ignored. But picking a town, settling down and waiting is still a huge gamble and the longest stint I have done waiting around is 12 months on a single lease. I've studied my ATPLs while waiting but, I feel like the whole exercise has been a complete waste of time and money.
I looked at the GA ready course purely for "networking" sake and I feel like it's a $5000 networking opportunity. I may consider this but still, most people in the course don't get a job after it.
I wish flying schools were more transparent about this reality. I think more people would re-consider this career path and perhaps buy a house instead, or get into real estate where there is very little barrier to entry and the money you could earn is much more fruitful.
Thanks for reading and I want to remain completely anonymous as I don't want anybody to "black list" me permanently for sharing the "dark' side of trying to land a first GA job.
Again this is my 2 cents for what it's worth.
I haven't been successful finding a GA job so I guess I have failed this mission and want to share my story.
I've completed all my training (CPL, ME IR, ATPL "theory credit", FIR G3, 430 hrs TT). Self funded no silver spoons, no VET fee help. Working jobs, saving and swiping my credit card against every single hour logged in my logbook. I spent time in Namibia looking for bush flying work and no luck there so returned to Oz, trekked to Alice. Got a rental. Tried not to get stabbed at night and did the rounds at all the operators. Was there for a few months - met some pilots and did the whole networking thing. Decided it was time to leave Alice after waking up to someone having set fire to a mattress in my front lawn. If anyone has lived in Alice, you know that scoring a flying job here means putting your life on the line (literally!). Never go out at night! Ventured up to Katherine and stayed there for 2-3 months in a temporary rental. Explored the area, met the few operators that are based there. Again, the crime wave is rampant in Katherine (following the only highway up from Alice). The crime in Katherine is not as bad as Alice but it's still bad. Soldiered up to Darwin and stayed in a hostel for almost 2 months while sticking my head into the operators. Met a few pilots at Shenanigans and it's great (very social)- but for every 1 entry level C210 job that pops up here every now and a blue moon, there's 50-60 pilots waiting to jump on it. Moved out of said hostel and into a caravan park while rinsing and repeating the same behaviour month after month (door knocking, shaking hands, "being friendly", etc) without coming across as a desperate loser. I shot across to Broome (stayed in a hostel for 2 weeks) and then returned to Darwin.
After 12 months of "bouncing around" and settling in to different places for a few months at a time, I decided to get the coveted FIR G3 to try and crack the instructor market. Boy oh boy, it's just as tough! I've come to learn (after finishing) that nobody wants a G3 unless you've had a "gentleman's agreement" with a HOO or CP that they are likely to employ you after you finish the course. I messed up and felt like I wasted almost $25,000 in savings which I earned while working as a labourer. I recently did the IPC which again, waste of money but need to keep all these expensive licence add-ons up-to-date!!
It's also very disheartening when the occasional 23 year old waltzes past you with sub 200 hours and gets a job on the 210 because they are the son of the x who knows xyz. I must say that looking for a GA job is much harder than any flight test or theory exam I've ever done. Nobody really talks about how gruelling it is. Sitting and waiting around for the phone to ring. Sleeping in hostels and caravan parks, or driving through flood waters in the wet season up here to try and catch a CP, or realising that you are just one of dozens of freshly minted CPL'ers on the exact same train as you. Needless to say, almost all the kids floating around up here are on over $100,000 dollars in student loan debt and most of them (90% I'd say), won't find a job in this industry. Just because I see first hand the lack of jobs vs the demand. In a way, I'm lucky because I've used my savings but it's still almost $100,000 spent (over 4 years of self study and saving as a labourer). When I drop into an operator up here once a month or so, I ask them 'how many emails do you get a week for jobs' and their response is something like 100-200!! In person, a half dozen resumes get dropped off at some of these operators every day or so. Obviously you should NEVER email because nobody is going to read it and if they do, it will just get ignored. But picking a town, settling down and waiting is still a huge gamble and the longest stint I have done waiting around is 12 months on a single lease. I've studied my ATPLs while waiting but, I feel like the whole exercise has been a complete waste of time and money.
I looked at the GA ready course purely for "networking" sake and I feel like it's a $5000 networking opportunity. I may consider this but still, most people in the course don't get a job after it.
I wish flying schools were more transparent about this reality. I think more people would re-consider this career path and perhaps buy a house instead, or get into real estate where there is very little barrier to entry and the money you could earn is much more fruitful.
Thanks for reading and I want to remain completely anonymous as I don't want anybody to "black list" me permanently for sharing the "dark' side of trying to land a first GA job.
Again this is my 2 cents for what it's worth.
The following 6 users liked this post by lilAussieBatla:
Top Answer
8th Jan 2024, 21:24
Thought I'd add a couple of thoughts to this, as the OP seems to have made an effort - although that is more than many of his peers, it appears as though there's something going wrong for him...
As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!
In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.
Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!
Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:
Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!
Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.
As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!
In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.
Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!
Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:
- Based on the OP's intent, the FIR was a waste of time. We actually need an Instructor in our Company (with a balance of charter flying as well) - but we are not keen on pilots who have the rating for simple "hour-building" - you need to have a desire to teach & a sense of service to your trainees if you are to be of any value as an Instructor. Sounds harsh - but it is clear that the OP did not have a motivation to teach when deciding to get the FIR - but in the future, this rating might be the most lucrative (as the FIR is certainly desirable in C&T organisations, etc)
- Keep knocking on the doors & if the CP isn't there, or not inclined to see you at that moment (heaven forbid, he might actually be busy!) - then make an appointment & keep trying. From my personal experience, this doesn't happen very often at all...
- Listening to podcasts from people who have never worked in the "normal" GA charter space doesn't really help - the people you need to listen to & network with are actually the senior pilots & Chief Pilots of the organisations you are seeking a start from. How does one do this? Knock on the door & make an appointment. Proper networking is NOT going to a pool party in Darwin surrounded by other 200 hour pilots who either don't have a job & are backstabbing every operator in town, or who have just started in a job & are backstabbing every operator in town! Trust me, as employers we are aware that our character gets regularly assassinated - sometimes deservedly so, but more often out of ignorance from those who treat our businesses like an amusement park & carelessly / arrogantly trash our equipment. Think about how you can make a CP feel comfortable that you are not that person.
- Other pilots who are looking for work or who are at the same "level" as you in the industry are NOT your friends - many will cut your throat in a heartbeat to secure any advantage. Drink beer & be sociable with them, that's important, but tell them nothing that they could use to "throw you under the bus". Don't believe everything they tell you - the rumour network is rampant at all levels of aviation! Don't succumb to collective negativity - the bigger a group of pilots, the more negativity there will likely be. It's like a "groupthink" phenomenon... employers actually like genuine positivity & as hard as that is to maintain when the hits seem to keep on coming - you will need to find a way!
- Be aware that every prospective pilot will absolutely work for the first Company that says "yes" first - keep this in mind when hearing pilots who are bagging out their own, or other, companies. Don't become that person. The healthiest approach is to remember that this is the start of your career, hopefully not the endstate - so enjoy the flying you get in your first job, treat whichever Company it is with respect & take any hardships (real or perceived) on the chin. When the time comes to move on, maintain your integrity - often, the apparent poor attitudes of companies has been shaped by previous pilots burning them on the way out the door. Try to make the journey for those that follow easier by contributing to the GA space, not lamenting it or contributing to its destruction.
- DO NOT do the GA Ready Course if you think that it a "buy yourself a job" product. Most don't get a job out of it because there simply just isn't the amount of jobs in the associated companies to provide one to every single comer. However, it can provide decent networking (with some of the relevant people) & helps you "get your name out there" in the local region, but opportunities from that course are still based on the age-old "fit for the business" concept. Regardless of how much money one throws at something, or how many stamps are in the logbook / on the licence - Rule #1 of hiring people still applies. In the case of the OP - there may be a real question of currency / recency - if there has been little or no flying in the past year or so, a potential issue is applying for a job without being current - so the effort needs to be made to ensure that flying skills / recency are demonstrably in place. The GA Course may assist with that as well as provide insight into flying operations in the NT that won't be learned by driving around
- When you do get an interview with a CP - tell them about your journey, including any funny / challenging experiences along the way. Most (at least those older than 25...) will be able to empathise, a personal connection helps. I have also extinguished a mattress that has been on fire in my yard, even having had two (not just one) cars stolen from my front yard in the same night... As one of my pilots says, it's a little like dating in high school - first you must do the dance...
Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!
Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.
Thanks for your honest and accurate post. Whilst it won’t come as much consolidation, at the very least you have reminded this airline pilot just how fortunate their career path has been despite any self perceived hardships.
Stick at it and stay in touch, you’ll be surprised who from here might be able to help.
I will contend your point about Alice though. I spent a few years there and survived many nights out including a nap or two in the Todd after they kicked us out of the Cas. Great memories.
Stick at it and stay in touch, you’ll be surprised who from here might be able to help.
I will contend your point about Alice though. I spent a few years there and survived many nights out including a nap or two in the Todd after they kicked us out of the Cas. Great memories.
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Can’t say that path was much different 30 years ago, but stick with it and you have a chance. Give up, and you have none.
It’s never easy, but anything worth doing never is.
All the airlines are hiring, most are constrained by their capacity to train. The vacuum at the top draws everyone up the levels with it.This will be happening for the foreseeable future.
If you really want it, and I suspect you do given the way you’ve gone about it, hang in there.
It’s never easy, but anything worth doing never is.
All the airlines are hiring, most are constrained by their capacity to train. The vacuum at the top draws everyone up the levels with it.This will be happening for the foreseeable future.
If you really want it, and I suspect you do given the way you’ve gone about it, hang in there.
The following 2 users liked this post by Switchbait:
Thought I'd add a couple of thoughts to this, as the OP seems to have made an effort - although that is more than many of his peers, it appears as though there's something going wrong for him...
As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!
In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.
Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!
Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:
Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!
Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.
As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!
In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.
Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!
Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:
- Based on the OP's intent, the FIR was a waste of time. We actually need an Instructor in our Company (with a balance of charter flying as well) - but we are not keen on pilots who have the rating for simple "hour-building" - you need to have a desire to teach & a sense of service to your trainees if you are to be of any value as an Instructor. Sounds harsh - but it is clear that the OP did not have a motivation to teach when deciding to get the FIR - but in the future, this rating might be the most lucrative (as the FIR is certainly desirable in C&T organisations, etc)
- Keep knocking on the doors & if the CP isn't there, or not inclined to see you at that moment (heaven forbid, he might actually be busy!) - then make an appointment & keep trying. From my personal experience, this doesn't happen very often at all...
- Listening to podcasts from people who have never worked in the "normal" GA charter space doesn't really help - the people you need to listen to & network with are actually the senior pilots & Chief Pilots of the organisations you are seeking a start from. How does one do this? Knock on the door & make an appointment. Proper networking is NOT going to a pool party in Darwin surrounded by other 200 hour pilots who either don't have a job & are backstabbing every operator in town, or who have just started in a job & are backstabbing every operator in town! Trust me, as employers we are aware that our character gets regularly assassinated - sometimes deservedly so, but more often out of ignorance from those who treat our businesses like an amusement park & carelessly / arrogantly trash our equipment. Think about how you can make a CP feel comfortable that you are not that person.
- Other pilots who are looking for work or who are at the same "level" as you in the industry are NOT your friends - many will cut your throat in a heartbeat to secure any advantage. Drink beer & be sociable with them, that's important, but tell them nothing that they could use to "throw you under the bus". Don't believe everything they tell you - the rumour network is rampant at all levels of aviation! Don't succumb to collective negativity - the bigger a group of pilots, the more negativity there will likely be. It's like a "groupthink" phenomenon... employers actually like genuine positivity & as hard as that is to maintain when the hits seem to keep on coming - you will need to find a way!
- Be aware that every prospective pilot will absolutely work for the first Company that says "yes" first - keep this in mind when hearing pilots who are bagging out their own, or other, companies. Don't become that person. The healthiest approach is to remember that this is the start of your career, hopefully not the endstate - so enjoy the flying you get in your first job, treat whichever Company it is with respect & take any hardships (real or perceived) on the chin. When the time comes to move on, maintain your integrity - often, the apparent poor attitudes of companies has been shaped by previous pilots burning them on the way out the door. Try to make the journey for those that follow easier by contributing to the GA space, not lamenting it or contributing to its destruction.
- DO NOT do the GA Ready Course if you think that it a "buy yourself a job" product. Most don't get a job out of it because there simply just isn't the amount of jobs in the associated companies to provide one to every single comer. However, it can provide decent networking (with some of the relevant people) & helps you "get your name out there" in the local region, but opportunities from that course are still based on the age-old "fit for the business" concept. Regardless of how much money one throws at something, or how many stamps are in the logbook / on the licence - Rule #1 of hiring people still applies. In the case of the OP - there may be a real question of currency / recency - if there has been little or no flying in the past year or so, a potential issue is applying for a job without being current - so the effort needs to be made to ensure that flying skills / recency are demonstrably in place. The GA Course may assist with that as well as provide insight into flying operations in the NT that won't be learned by driving around
- When you do get an interview with a CP - tell them about your journey, including any funny / challenging experiences along the way. Most (at least those older than 25...) will be able to empathise, a personal connection helps. I have also extinguished a mattress that has been on fire in my yard, even having had two (not just one) cars stolen from my front yard in the same night... As one of my pilots says, it's a little like dating in high school - first you must do the dance...
Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!
Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.
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One of the most legitimate and well written posts here. lilAussieBatla Stick with it. You seem to have the determination.
Flying Bear A great reply.
Flying Bear A great reply.
The following 2 users liked this post by ShandywithSugar:
The newbie market might have come off a bit but it’s still better than it was 30 years ago.
Small comfort to you OP as you weren’t born then, but the people employing you were and went through that journey or harder. Consequently expect some empathy but little sympathy to your plight.
Small comfort to you OP as you weren’t born then, but the people employing you were and went through that journey or harder. Consequently expect some empathy but little sympathy to your plight.
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One thing that isn’t taught or talked about to new pilots is diversification with regards to the flying skills.
Pilots generally think that they are only pilots and can’t or don’t want to do anything more than fly, particularly with regards to management and compliance. I don’t mean scrubbing the belly of a 210 to get the dirt and oil off it to make it look good or go faster.
A bit of initiative, ability to get out of one’s comfort zone and salesmanship without bull****ting can reap rewards.
Think what AOC holders need now, most of them require assistance with transitioning to the new ops regs.
Ops manuals require amendments, new procedures need to be developed and safety management systems need to be implemented. Can the average pilot help with any of these new demands? They should be able to if they have a CPL. It’s not rocket science, nor is it hard to learn how to use Microsoft products.
Sadly 90% of the pilots I know and have worked with over the years are absolutely hopeless at doing anything else other than fly planes or helicopters, nor do they have the willingness and initiative to try anything different. It’s all about being in a hurry to get into a big fast shinny jet, or a big helicopter 🙃
Pilots generally think that they are only pilots and can’t or don’t want to do anything more than fly, particularly with regards to management and compliance. I don’t mean scrubbing the belly of a 210 to get the dirt and oil off it to make it look good or go faster.
A bit of initiative, ability to get out of one’s comfort zone and salesmanship without bull****ting can reap rewards.
Think what AOC holders need now, most of them require assistance with transitioning to the new ops regs.
Ops manuals require amendments, new procedures need to be developed and safety management systems need to be implemented. Can the average pilot help with any of these new demands? They should be able to if they have a CPL. It’s not rocket science, nor is it hard to learn how to use Microsoft products.
Sadly 90% of the pilots I know and have worked with over the years are absolutely hopeless at doing anything else other than fly planes or helicopters, nor do they have the willingness and initiative to try anything different. It’s all about being in a hurry to get into a big fast shinny jet, or a big helicopter 🙃
The following 3 users liked this post by Duck Pilot:
One thing that isn’t taught or talked about to new pilots is diversification with regards to the flying skills.
….
<snip>
Think what AOC holders need now, most of them require assistance with transitioning to the new ops regs.
Ops manuals require amendments, new procedures need to be developed and safety management systems need to be implemented. Can the average pilot help with any of these new demands? They should be able to if they have a CPL. It’s not rocket science, nor is it hard to learn how to use Microsoft products.
….
<snip>
Think what AOC holders need now, most of them require assistance with transitioning to the new ops regs.
Ops manuals require amendments, new procedures need to be developed and safety management systems need to be implemented. Can the average pilot help with any of these new demands? They should be able to if they have a CPL. It’s not rocket science, nor is it hard to learn how to use Microsoft products.
ESPECIALLY if you’ve gone and done a flying degree.
Last edited by compressor stall; 9th Jan 2024 at 07:15.
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A tip from mine would be to stop moving around so much. Need to be Johnny on the spot. Pick a location and stick to it. ie Darwin or Broome.
When I started out, 3 people were hired in a 12 month period and 2 of those had the job before they arrived into town due family connection. Keep at it, one day you'll reflect on the journey and realise it was well worth it and that flying a piston single around was the best job you ever had.
When I started out, 3 people were hired in a 12 month period and 2 of those had the job before they arrived into town due family connection. Keep at it, one day you'll reflect on the journey and realise it was well worth it and that flying a piston single around was the best job you ever had.
I’m disappointed that there hasn’t been a response from the OP thanking FlyingBear for the time and effort that he took to write that excellent informative post.
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Some good replies here already, here's my 2c- timing is everything!
As has been mentioned you need to be on the spot and ready-to-go (& suitably current so you can still perform on a check-flight).
Now is the time to be establishing yourself somewhere for the upcoming dry, with work typically kicking off late March/April.
I'm only just heading out the door of GA into the airline world, but with plenty of mates still in amongst it know that now is the time they're looking over CVs, working out pilot numbers etc, and sorting out start dates etc.
I'd maybe consider Broome/Kununurra and dig in there with a normal job first and foremost (plenty of work going in just about any industry you can imagine). For your first flying job the flying licence is obviously important, but as you've illustrated you haven't really got anything useful to offer people in terms of experience.
I'd sell other skills, have you got a forklift licence, truck licence, RSA? Any kind of mechanical knowledge to help out in the hangar (though this happens less & less). A lot of the GA companies have people wearing many hats, if you can become one of the many with skills completely outside aviation, but which are useful to the business that could help get you through the door. Scenics and stuff thrive on personality, so being able to spin a yarn, being able to talk things up (try telling a spiel about some stripey rocks for the 500th time!)- all of that needs to be able to come across with positivity and enthusiasm.
When I went North about 5 years ago with my wife we sorted a job for her first (niche industry), and that location became "The" town. I reasoned if I didn't get a start I'd just pick up work in something else for a while, and keep trying. (I've got a farm background and truck licence so knew that I wouldn't be out of work if the flying didn't happen).
Anyway, I tried the 3x different operators there- one was a TBNT, another was interview and a scheduled checkflight and the final operator (which I really wanted), didn't have anything for me flying but had something in ops. Their senior pilot at the time counselled me and told me to take the flying gig elsewhere... However, the day before the checkflight, a heap of pilots decided they didn't want to come back for the season at the place I wanted. A role was now available for me, when could I start? It led to some great training, promotions right through the ranks, mates and experiences. We ended up doing almost 5 years there, before heading back to the city!
Anyway keep at it, it is just a numbers game - and all you need is one.
As has been mentioned you need to be on the spot and ready-to-go (& suitably current so you can still perform on a check-flight).
Now is the time to be establishing yourself somewhere for the upcoming dry, with work typically kicking off late March/April.
I'm only just heading out the door of GA into the airline world, but with plenty of mates still in amongst it know that now is the time they're looking over CVs, working out pilot numbers etc, and sorting out start dates etc.
I'd maybe consider Broome/Kununurra and dig in there with a normal job first and foremost (plenty of work going in just about any industry you can imagine). For your first flying job the flying licence is obviously important, but as you've illustrated you haven't really got anything useful to offer people in terms of experience.
I'd sell other skills, have you got a forklift licence, truck licence, RSA? Any kind of mechanical knowledge to help out in the hangar (though this happens less & less). A lot of the GA companies have people wearing many hats, if you can become one of the many with skills completely outside aviation, but which are useful to the business that could help get you through the door. Scenics and stuff thrive on personality, so being able to spin a yarn, being able to talk things up (try telling a spiel about some stripey rocks for the 500th time!)- all of that needs to be able to come across with positivity and enthusiasm.
When I went North about 5 years ago with my wife we sorted a job for her first (niche industry), and that location became "The" town. I reasoned if I didn't get a start I'd just pick up work in something else for a while, and keep trying. (I've got a farm background and truck licence so knew that I wouldn't be out of work if the flying didn't happen).
Anyway, I tried the 3x different operators there- one was a TBNT, another was interview and a scheduled checkflight and the final operator (which I really wanted), didn't have anything for me flying but had something in ops. Their senior pilot at the time counselled me and told me to take the flying gig elsewhere... However, the day before the checkflight, a heap of pilots decided they didn't want to come back for the season at the place I wanted. A role was now available for me, when could I start? It led to some great training, promotions right through the ranks, mates and experiences. We ended up doing almost 5 years there, before heading back to the city!
Anyway keep at it, it is just a numbers game - and all you need is one.
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When I read sad stories like this I get a little uptight at people on Pprune bagging out the Rex program and telling guys querying the Rex cadetship to walk away, run away etc etc. Pretty much the same money spent but guaranteed multi crew, multi engine turbine time. Surely that's got to beat dodging knives in the Alice.
Aussie Battla - good luck to you mate. Have you tried the RAAF? Great way to get a career going.
Aussie Battla - good luck to you mate. Have you tried the RAAF? Great way to get a career going.
When I read sad stories like this I get a little uptight at people on Pprune bagging out the Rex program and telling guys querying the Rex cadetship to walk away, run away etc etc. Pretty much the same money spent but guaranteed multi crew, multi engine turbine time. Surely that's got to beat dodging knives in the Alice.
Aussie Battla - good luck to you mate. Have you tried the RAAF? Great way to get a career going.
Aussie Battla - good luck to you mate. Have you tried the RAAF? Great way to get a career going.
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An interesting thread and similar to many others over the years ...
Several of the more experienced folk (eg Flying Bear, Duck Pilot, Compressor Stall; I know who those guys are and they do have lots of runs on the board) have offered good gen suggestions.
A theme which comes through, time and time again when talking with management folk, is along the line of "tell us what you can do (ie offer) which we can use over and above driving aeroplanes (or helicopters)".
That is to say, consider sitting back, over a coffee or two, and reflect on all those things which a small to medium sized operator has to do in order to function and survive. If you have similar qualifications on the flying side to those offered by your competition, and naught else, then you are at an automatic disadvantage. While you must have all the basic necessaries before you get invited through the door for a talk, those sideline skills which may be of use to the potential employer provide an opportunity to distinguish your application from those in the competitors' pile on the desk.
The following is by no means exhaustive but may trigger other thoughts relevant to your particular circumstances and history - the operator probably gets involved with activities such as -
(a) regulatory admin - do you have skills related to dealing with CASA and other relevant statutory bodies ? Do you have experience with AOC setup programs/auditing/training ? Do you have an accounting/book-keeping background ?
(b) maintenance - do you have any maintenance (especially aircraft) exposure/skills/qualifications ? Do you have any weight control skills (especially if you hold a CAO 100.28 WCA - that could save an operator out in the boonies significant labour dollars). Do you have any useful engineering skiils, such as performance work ?
(c) general - do you hold any heavy vehicle licences ? An HR endorsement covers a lot of territory. How about that fork lift ticket ? Do you have any serious IT skills ?
And so it goes on ... If something you can do or are qualified to do (if the ticket is important) gives you a step up if that skill/ticket is of use to the potential employer.
Just a thought .....
Several of the more experienced folk (eg Flying Bear, Duck Pilot, Compressor Stall; I know who those guys are and they do have lots of runs on the board) have offered good gen suggestions.
A theme which comes through, time and time again when talking with management folk, is along the line of "tell us what you can do (ie offer) which we can use over and above driving aeroplanes (or helicopters)".
That is to say, consider sitting back, over a coffee or two, and reflect on all those things which a small to medium sized operator has to do in order to function and survive. If you have similar qualifications on the flying side to those offered by your competition, and naught else, then you are at an automatic disadvantage. While you must have all the basic necessaries before you get invited through the door for a talk, those sideline skills which may be of use to the potential employer provide an opportunity to distinguish your application from those in the competitors' pile on the desk.
The following is by no means exhaustive but may trigger other thoughts relevant to your particular circumstances and history - the operator probably gets involved with activities such as -
(a) regulatory admin - do you have skills related to dealing with CASA and other relevant statutory bodies ? Do you have experience with AOC setup programs/auditing/training ? Do you have an accounting/book-keeping background ?
(b) maintenance - do you have any maintenance (especially aircraft) exposure/skills/qualifications ? Do you have any weight control skills (especially if you hold a CAO 100.28 WCA - that could save an operator out in the boonies significant labour dollars). Do you have any useful engineering skiils, such as performance work ?
(c) general - do you hold any heavy vehicle licences ? An HR endorsement covers a lot of territory. How about that fork lift ticket ? Do you have any serious IT skills ?
And so it goes on ... If something you can do or are qualified to do (if the ticket is important) gives you a step up if that skill/ticket is of use to the potential employer.
Just a thought .....
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Thought I'd add a couple of thoughts to this, as the OP seems to have made an effort - although that is more than many of his peers, it appears as though there's something going wrong for him...
As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!
In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.
Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!
Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:
Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!
Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.
As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!
In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.
Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!
Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:
- Based on the OP's intent, the FIR was a waste of time. We actually need an Instructor in our Company (with a balance of charter flying as well) - but we are not keen on pilots who have the rating for simple "hour-building" - you need to have a desire to teach & a sense of service to your trainees if you are to be of any value as an Instructor. Sounds harsh - but it is clear that the OP did not have a motivation to teach when deciding to get the FIR - but in the future, this rating might be the most lucrative (as the FIR is certainly desirable in C&T organisations, etc)
- Keep knocking on the doors & if the CP isn't there, or not inclined to see you at that moment (heaven forbid, he might actually be busy!) - then make an appointment & keep trying. From my personal experience, this doesn't happen very often at all...
- Listening to podcasts from people who have never worked in the "normal" GA charter space doesn't really help - the people you need to listen to & network with are actually the senior pilots & Chief Pilots of the organisations you are seeking a start from. How does one do this? Knock on the door & make an appointment. Proper networking is NOT going to a pool party in Darwin surrounded by other 200 hour pilots who either don't have a job & are backstabbing every operator in town, or who have just started in a job & are backstabbing every operator in town! Trust me, as employers we are aware that our character gets regularly assassinated - sometimes deservedly so, but more often out of ignorance from those who treat our businesses like an amusement park & carelessly / arrogantly trash our equipment. Think about how you can make a CP feel comfortable that you are not that person.
- Other pilots who are looking for work or who are at the same "level" as you in the industry are NOT your friends - many will cut your throat in a heartbeat to secure any advantage. Drink beer & be sociable with them, that's important, but tell them nothing that they could use to "throw you under the bus". Don't believe everything they tell you - the rumour network is rampant at all levels of aviation! Don't succumb to collective negativity - the bigger a group of pilots, the more negativity there will likely be. It's like a "groupthink" phenomenon... employers actually like genuine positivity & as hard as that is to maintain when the hits seem to keep on coming - you will need to find a way!
- Be aware that every prospective pilot will absolutely work for the first Company that says "yes" first - keep this in mind when hearing pilots who are bagging out their own, or other, companies. Don't become that person. The healthiest approach is to remember that this is the start of your career, hopefully not the endstate - so enjoy the flying you get in your first job, treat whichever Company it is with respect & take any hardships (real or perceived) on the chin. When the time comes to move on, maintain your integrity - often, the apparent poor attitudes of companies has been shaped by previous pilots burning them on the way out the door. Try to make the journey for those that follow easier by contributing to the GA space, not lamenting it or contributing to its destruction.
- DO NOT do the GA Ready Course if you think that it a "buy yourself a job" product. Most don't get a job out of it because there simply just isn't the amount of jobs in the associated companies to provide one to every single comer. However, it can provide decent networking (with some of the relevant people) & helps you "get your name out there" in the local region, but opportunities from that course are still based on the age-old "fit for the business" concept. Regardless of how much money one throws at something, or how many stamps are in the logbook / on the licence - Rule #1 of hiring people still applies. In the case of the OP - there may be a real question of currency / recency - if there has been little or no flying in the past year or so, a potential issue is applying for a job without being current - so the effort needs to be made to ensure that flying skills / recency are demonstrably in place. The GA Course may assist with that as well as provide insight into flying operations in the NT that won't be learned by driving around
- When you do get an interview with a CP - tell them about your journey, including any funny / challenging experiences along the way. Most (at least those older than 25...) will be able to empathise, a personal connection helps. I have also extinguished a mattress that has been on fire in my yard, even having had two (not just one) cars stolen from my front yard in the same night... As one of my pilots says, it's a little like dating in high school - first you must do the dance...
Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!
Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.
I've read through your points and they are useful. I definitely can relate to the general "throw you under the bus" phenomenon. I've told a few guys about jobs that have popped up (one managed to get a job and I've never heard from that guy again!). You're probably right about the FIR intent however, I did study teaching at uni then quit to get into the trades. I do enjoy teaching but yes, my initial intent of an FIR was to use it as a "last resort" to get into the industry but not necessarily for "build hours for the airlines".
I still may consider the GA ready course as a "last last resort". It's another $5,000 investment and with the amount of money I've already spent, I'm just not sure I can keep throwing money into something (on top of the thousands needed to keep current/recent etc). I'll probably end up doing it because of the sunk-cost fallacy at play.
On the Alice note, it's a rough place! If anyone wants to know - go to YouTube and take a look. The airport worker in the next suburb from me had his tyres slashed and a death threat left on his window. It's not uncommon to see groups of 10-20 young aboriginal youths smashing windows, lighting fires, and terrorising the streets (mainly at night). It has become much worse in the last 10 years so I'm told - with that crime wave making its way up to Darwin via Kath. Seeing a mattress lit in my front lawn was the last straw for me. Some people can judge me for "jumping around and not staying in the same place for a job" but, come and spend time in Alice waiting for a GA job and let me know in 3 months if someone hasn't attempted to steal your car or set your letterbox on fire. Katherine was another place I didn't want to spend a lot of time in... for similar reasons but it's not as bad as Alice (yet). Katherine is another place to not leave your house at night. Even during the day, nobody walks down the main street of Katherine. While I was there, someone tried to set fire to the petrol station! So - again - when people say that I should stay LONGER in these places, I'm not sure if they've ever been there or spent much time there in recent times.
Thanks again for your post. It was insightful.
I wonder if any of us would have ever thought of publicly documenting our numerous serial disappointments over the courses of our respective careers?
The OPs tales of woe are not unique and they never were.
Truth is, nothing beats a rich, connected Daddy or Mummy to kickstart ones career. Without this, the rest of us had to rely on perseverance and luck. The longer you persevere, he luckier you get.
The OPs tales of woe are not unique and they never were.
Truth is, nothing beats a rich, connected Daddy or Mummy to kickstart ones career. Without this, the rest of us had to rely on perseverance and luck. The longer you persevere, he luckier you get.
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