Western Sydney International & Bankstown
I know I've said it before, but I really don't think YSBK is going away anytime soon.
There is a lot of talk about "training areas" in this posting. Enlighten me about why they are so important in the civilian context.
Surely they are simply a piece of airspace that CASA OAR has put a red square around and called a Danger Area?
Does civil flying training have to take place in a Danger Area, does it have to be Class G, could it be Class E?
Most flying training, it seems to me, is carried out in the circuit area, these are not Danger Areas....
My point is that many correspondents have talked about transit times to "training areas". Surely any piece of airspace can be a training area.....
Surely they are simply a piece of airspace that CASA OAR has put a red square around and called a Danger Area?
Does civil flying training have to take place in a Danger Area, does it have to be Class G, could it be Class E?
Most flying training, it seems to me, is carried out in the circuit area, these are not Danger Areas....
My point is that many correspondents have talked about transit times to "training areas". Surely any piece of airspace can be a training area.....
Most flying training, it seems to me, is carried out in the circuit area, these are not Danger Areas....
If your lesson is $350 per hour then 6 minutes is $35. Doesn't sound like much right, but if .3 is used in unproductive transit, it adds up. You can't use all of the transit time in lesson objectives, doesn't work that way.
There is a lot of talk about "training areas" in this posting. Enlighten me about why they are so important in the civilian context.
Surely they are simply a piece of airspace that CASA OAR has put a red square around and called a Danger Area?
Does civil flying training have to take place in a Danger Area, does it have to be Class G, could it be Class E?
Most flying training, it seems to me, is carried out in the circuit area, these are not Danger Areas....
My point is that many correspondents have talked about transit times to "training areas". Surely any piece of airspace can be a training area.....
Surely they are simply a piece of airspace that CASA OAR has put a red square around and called a Danger Area?
Does civil flying training have to take place in a Danger Area, does it have to be Class G, could it be Class E?
Most flying training, it seems to me, is carried out in the circuit area, these are not Danger Areas....
My point is that many correspondents have talked about transit times to "training areas". Surely any piece of airspace can be a training area.....
- effects of controls,
- straight and level,
- climbing and descending,
- turning
- stalling.
- forced landings,
- advanced turning,
- advanced stalling,
- force landings,
- precautionary search and landing
- basic instrument flight
Having an area close to the departure field to do those lessons is important, the student pays by the hour. Spending a significant percentage of those lessons in transit (eg following a corridor to get to an area that is suitable - away from controlled airspace, with suitable altitude and space, away from built up areas and noise sensitive areas) means either the actual time on lesson must be reduced (and hence lessons must be carried across multiple flights) or each lesson will have to be longer. Both options mean higher costs for the student and slower progress.
The existing Bankstown/Camden training areas are heavily used with numerous aircraft doing such activities every day (listen to ATC giving traffic to IFR aircraft that transit those areas, it can be, at times, hectic). Where should the training aircraft go?
Mossberg.Jonkster - thanks for the replies, but my point was that training areas, as designated, are not a legislative requirement for training, especially as jonkster tells us that IFR aircraft transit through them! (If that is true, what is the point of the designation?)
Hence Bankstown people should be pushing for a minimisation of WSI airport airspace, so that schools can find a piece of Class G in which to train. The establishment of a "training area" is, from what you have told me, not necessary.
Given the proximity of airports to each other in Europe and the US, a quick trip overseas, with an unbrainwashed airspace specialist, might soon open your eyes.
Hence Bankstown people should be pushing for a minimisation of WSI airport airspace, so that schools can find a piece of Class G in which to train. The establishment of a "training area" is, from what you have told me, not necessary.
Given the proximity of airports to each other in Europe and the US, a quick trip overseas, with an unbrainwashed airspace specialist, might soon open your eyes.
Agree with the points you are making Proach. What I'm saying in a roundabout way is the airspace in those parts will now mainly be controlled, leaving very little room for training sequences. Bankstown is virtually over as a GA training aerodrome once Badgery's is happening.
Mr Mossberg - if you have the time take a look at the FAA charts for any major hub in the USA.
Utilising Class B, or C for less busy airports, surrounded by E, they keep the RPT traffic high and close to the airport, leaving plenty of low level Class E for VFR training.
The difference is that the FAA has the will to make things work, Airservices the opposite.
Utilising Class B, or C for less busy airports, surrounded by E, they keep the RPT traffic high and close to the airport, leaving plenty of low level Class E for VFR training.
The difference is that the FAA has the will to make things work, Airservices the opposite.
Yeah mate, I've got an FAA licence 
have done quite a bit of private flying there, Chicago area.
Chalk and Cheese!
Nothing will change here, if anything it gets more complicated by the day.
have done quite a bit of private flying there, Chicago area.Chalk and Cheese!
Nothing will change here, if anything it gets more complicated by the day.
Consultation is now open for General Aviation operations in the Sydney basin. Speak up now or forever hold your peace:
https://www.avsef.gov.au/consultatio...s-sydney-basin
https://www.avsef.gov.au/consultatio...s-sydney-basin
Speak up now or forever hold your peace:
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"Nepean One" in that https://www.avsef.gov.au/consultatio...s-sydney-basin is 'interesting'.
I predict much more attention being given to carby-icing when arriving and to engine-temps when departing.
(I'm sure that the people near Katoomba will appreciate seeing aircraft 2000' closer to the ground)
I predict much more attention being given to carby-icing when arriving and to engine-temps when departing.
(I'm sure that the people near Katoomba will appreciate seeing aircraft 2000' closer to the ground)
So technically the new proposal for YSBK should be called Metro D+. (Or Metro D sharp or Metro E flat, in jonkster’s nomenclature.)
Indeed. So it goes D, Metro D+, Metro D then ForG.
Pressure is slowly building for something to be done: https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...05-p5f2f0.html
Training schools for pilots have warned they cannot afford the cost of shifting their operations to make way for Western Sydney International Airport in 2026, which could put further strain on the already depleted supply of pilots.
Aeria Management Group – which operates Camden and Bankstown airports and provides the bulk of pilot training in NSW – has warned the federal Department of Transport that its draft environmental impact statement for the new airport “substantially underestimates” the costs for the existing airports in the congested Sydney Basin.
.............
Aeria has asked the government for compensation, investment incentives and bolstered air traffic control resourcing to support the existing airports ahead of Western Sydney International Airport’s opening. It’s also called for a whole-of-airspace review of the broader Sydney Basin.
A spokesperson for Transport Minister Catherine King declined to respond to questions about the implications for the state’s flight training schools, but said the government was “considering feedback” received in the 8000 submissions to Western Sydney International Airport’s environmental impact statement.
Aeria Management Group – which operates Camden and Bankstown airports and provides the bulk of pilot training in NSW – has warned the federal Department of Transport that its draft environmental impact statement for the new airport “substantially underestimates” the costs for the existing airports in the congested Sydney Basin.
.............
Aeria has asked the government for compensation, investment incentives and bolstered air traffic control resourcing to support the existing airports ahead of Western Sydney International Airport’s opening. It’s also called for a whole-of-airspace review of the broader Sydney Basin.
A spokesperson for Transport Minister Catherine King declined to respond to questions about the implications for the state’s flight training schools, but said the government was “considering feedback” received in the 8000 submissions to Western Sydney International Airport’s environmental impact statement.
