G/A Light Aircraft ditches off Leighton Beach, WA
The Chieftains I used to fly on a casual basis for the old ASA back in the early noughties had fuel guages that were surprisingly accurate!
One one occasion, at the encouragement of some of the Line Pilots I decided to run the 'Auxes' down until an Engine surged. A ferry flight, only me on the A/C. Each engine selected about 15 minutes apart.
At two full needle widths below the empty indication on the guage with my hand on the selector and auxillary pumps on my nerve gave out, and I swapped back to the mains whilst the engine was still running sweetly!
I was assured that the Mains guages were of the same accuracy, but the only way I would trust that statement would have been a calibration done by the LAME's.
On the other hand; Early model Cessna 402's guages were, how shall we say, not as accurate! Especially on low readings.
And we shall leave it there I think!
One one occasion, at the encouragement of some of the Line Pilots I decided to run the 'Auxes' down until an Engine surged. A ferry flight, only me on the A/C. Each engine selected about 15 minutes apart.
At two full needle widths below the empty indication on the guage with my hand on the selector and auxillary pumps on my nerve gave out, and I swapped back to the mains whilst the engine was still running sweetly!
I was assured that the Mains guages were of the same accuracy, but the only way I would trust that statement would have been a calibration done by the LAME's.
On the other hand; Early model Cessna 402's guages were, how shall we say, not as accurate! Especially on low readings.
And we shall leave it there I think!
DF.
Back in the days when we had a bit more freedom to do such things, a mate asked me to renew his instrument rating. He had hired an old Aztec from some el cheapo operator at Essendon.
When we boarded there was a very strong fuel smell in the cabin. I got out and gave the wings a good shake and fuel sloshing around in the belly started dripping out under the aircraft. Presumably the cross feed line had broken.
Needless to say we did not switch anything on to check the fuel gauges!
The owner was quite p!ssed off that we grounded his pride and joy with an entry in the MR.
When we boarded there was a very strong fuel smell in the cabin. I got out and gave the wings a good shake and fuel sloshing around in the belly started dripping out under the aircraft. Presumably the cross feed line had broken.
Needless to say we did not switch anything on to check the fuel gauges!
The owner was quite p!ssed off that we grounded his pride and joy with an entry in the MR.
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Quite a few pilots who flew AWS got a nasty fright when the fuel in the auxes ran out before they were supposed to
Did my 402 endorsement on that a/c with the late TK.I believe that it was exported to the US when it reached the maximum allowed airframe hours.
Interesting reading here (thanks Clare Prop!).. it's good to know that 'no flaps' for ditching is the way to go. Ditching isn't something I was taught, doing my training so far away from water!
On the subject of re-use: I'd imagine this aircraft would be a write-off since any magnesium alloy components will have started fizzing almost straight away.
I've had quite a bit of first-hand experience with leaking PITA wing tank fuel drains on PA-28s, so it's a fair thing to pick up - especially after refuelling. Slow drips are more common than fast ones and a last-minute walk-around prior to boarding is essential.
On the subject of re-use: I'd imagine this aircraft would be a write-off since any magnesium alloy components will have started fizzing almost straight away.
However when I first read of this, and listened to the describe failure mode, I was reminded of an incident in my flying past, when I came across a leaking fuel drain. As I recall this was one of the wing drains, and fuel was dripping at a fair rate. Subsequent investigation determined that valve was a little 'sticky' and had probably remained partially 'up' after someone had carried out a fuel check.
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Interesting reading here (thanks Clare Prop!).. it's good to know that 'no flaps' for ditching is the way to go. Ditching isn't something I was taught, doing my training so far away from water!
On the subject of re-use: I'd imagine this aircraft would be a write-off since any magnesium alloy components will have started fizzing almost straight away.
.
On the subject of re-use: I'd imagine this aircraft would be a write-off since any magnesium alloy components will have started fizzing almost straight away.
.
Don’t take the “no flaps for ditching “ to apply to all types. It depends on aircraft type. In this, the POH or AFM should be your guide. Failing specific advice from the manufacturer about landing configuration, slow is good, by whatever means achievable, but not so slow as to stall it in. I have no idea whether flap does much for Cherokee stall speed or whether it is primarily a drag device that only changes stall speed by a few knots, so possibly that is why Piper say it’s not recommended for that airframe? It would be interesting to know if any water tank model testing to determine ditching characteristics was ever done by Piper. It’s certainly part of certification for larger aircraft.
Here is a true tale told to me by an American ferry pilot who acted as my co pilot on a F27 delivery. He reckoned I was in good hands because he had already ditched three times, and no one ditched four times!
Aircraft were: high wing Cessna (not sure which model), Navajo and BN2 Islander.
The Navajo had a crew door. He said that the aircraft couldn’t maintain flight after an engine failure, due to the ferry fuel overload; sea was rough when he went in. He described the landing as not all that bad. He had time to grab the life raft on the seat beside him, exit through the crew door and inflate the raft. By the time he had boarded the raft and looked around, the aircraft had sunk. He was rescued by a ship and got a free ride to Vladivostok.
The Cessna single was interesting, because he ditched a bit short of Hawaii, using full flap. It pitched nose down on impact. As he exited under the wing, his life jacket prematurely inflated, trapping him between the wing and the flap. Somehow he got out of that one and was picked up by the Coast Guard.
The BN2 was somewhere in the North Sea not far offshore. Although the touchdown speed should have been low (as you’d expect in a Bongo), as the nose gear dug in the nose section crumpled badly - and probably the deceleration contributed - so he suffered quite severe leg injuries. It’s just possible the touchdown speed was not as low as he thought (if it was night, in those pre GPS days, groundspeed was often the great unknown).
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 26th Apr 2023 at 22:13. Reason: Added bit about testing
Thanks, Mach - that's interesting.
The vast majority of my flying thus far has been in PA-28's of various flavours and capabilities, so it's pretty much all I know. The first 2 stages of flaps in the Archer/Warrior/Cherokee models are lift and the last stage basically all drag - so I get that you may not want ALL flaps out for ditching, but with the first two out you gain ~10kts before stall so that's what surprises me.
Hopefully Clare Prop can enlighten us, but maybe the concern is full or part flaps encouraging the aircraft to flip? Or maybe speed is better for a water landing?? Otherwise I've no idea why or where Piper say it's "not recommended for that airframe". I've never seen anything specific to ditching in the AFMs I've read and the airframe is stuffed anyway.
Don’t take the “no flaps for ditching “ to apply to all types, or even as generic wisdom. It depends on aircraft type. In this, the POH or AFM should be your guide. Failing specific advice from the manufacturer about landing configuration, slow is good, by whatever means achievable. I have no idea whether flap does much for Cherokee stall speed or whether it is primarily a drag device that only changes stall speed by a few knots, so possibly that is why Piper say it’s not recommended for that airframe?
Hopefully Clare Prop can enlighten us, but maybe the concern is full or part flaps encouraging the aircraft to flip? Or maybe speed is better for a water landing?? Otherwise I've no idea why or where Piper say it's "not recommended for that airframe". I've never seen anything specific to ditching in the AFMs I've read and the airframe is stuffed anyway.
Generally for ditching the idea is landing with minimal rate of descent, rather than absolutely minimal airspeed. Getting too slow can cause you to drop onto the surface which will result in very rapid decelleration and more chance of flipping. Of course too fast and you also risk much more damage. The POH usually has ditching advice so have a good read, you most likely will not have the time to look at it when the real thing happens.
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One one occasion, at the encouragement of some of the Line Pilots I decided to run the 'Auxes' down until an Engine surged. A ferry flight, only me on the A/C. Each engine selected about 15 minutes apart.
At two full needle widths below the empty indication on the guage with my hand on the selector and auxillary pumps on my nerve gave out, and I swapped back to the mains whilst the engine was still running sweetly!
At two full needle widths below the empty indication on the guage with my hand on the selector and auxillary pumps on my nerve gave out, and I swapped back to the mains whilst the engine was still running sweetly!
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Generally for ditching the idea is landing with minimal rate of descent, rather than absolutely minimal airspeed. Getting too slow can cause you to drop onto the surface which will result in very rapid decelleration and more chance of flipping. Of course too fast and you also risk much more damage. The POH usually has ditching advice so have a good read, you most likely will not have the time to look at it when the real thing happens.
I commend to everyone a thing called: “The Electric Interweb”. It can be searched to obtain information about subjects you specify. For example, you can search for information about ditching techniques in low-wing, fixed gear ‘light’ aircraft. And, in relation to a subject like running a tank dry in a ‘light’ aircraft, you’ll find stuff like this: https://www.avweb.com/features/avweb...fuel-tank-dry/
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I commend to everyone a thing called: “The Electric Interweb”. It can be searched to obtain information about subjects you specify. For example, you can search for information about ditching techniques in low-wing, fixed gear ‘light’ aircraft. And, in relation to a subject like running a tank dry in a ‘light’ aircraft, you’ll find stuff like this: https://www.avweb.com/features/avweb...fuel-tank-dry/
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Archer POH doesn't have a specific ditching procedure.
I did post an article on ditching by Paul Bertorelli earlier in the thread.
As for flaps, if I put anything about ditching technique I will be shouted down so I'm not going to bother.
As an Archer owner I am as interested as anyone else in what caused this.
I did post an article on ditching by Paul Bertorelli earlier in the thread.
As for flaps, if I put anything about ditching technique I will be shouted down so I'm not going to bother.
As an Archer owner I am as interested as anyone else in what caused this.
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Wise, indeed. When it comes to opinions on ditching, it's a bit like rectums - everyone has one. Problem is that those with the strongest opinions haven't actually done it. I suspect old mate Bertorelli hasn't either, though he quotes lots of feel-good statistics to put our minds at rest. I wonder if he has seen what the North Sea or Bass Strait can dish up in winter.
As for flaps, if I put anything about ditching technique I will be shouted down so I'm not going to bother.
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DF.
With runs on the board, surely you could part with some gems of wisdom for the rest of us PA-28 enthusiasts afraid of getting our feet wet?? So which is it: Fast or slow? Flaps or no?