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Missing light aircraft in the NT

Old 28th Dec 2022, 22:44
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If it was a QF, VA, Cobham, REX aircraft the companyís name would be all over the news with little/no regard to the crew or families involved.

Keeping the aircraft rego a secret is also unnecessary. Make it public now while the horrible incident is making the news. Maybe the public will be shocked at the age of the aircraft and the health departments/schools/other companies will refuse to put staff on aircraft older then XX years forcing companies to improve their aircraft.
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Old 28th Dec 2022, 22:47
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I worked for two Schools that attempted a mentoring program for instructors, both were relatively successful by creating a team leader grade one who acted as a guide for the less experienced. Unfortunately it was entirely pushed within the pilot group and not from management. So mostly fell apart when the lead instructors who set it up left. There were a lot of benefits from the system not the least being standardization and a reduction in training times as you had a group working together with students rather than individuals. I remember a lot of discussions about weather, both dangers and appropriate conditions for training, when students should go solo etc etc... During the program we never had a weather related incident or many incidents at all except a few students doing absent minded student things... It also made solo checks and tests very easy as having a group working together on a student really covered all bases and also made it easier for the student to transition to flying with others as they were not so hung up on the next instructor wanting something different from them.

Sadly my long term in GA only proved to me that no GA company was interested in being better, just getting more students/cash etc...

Even to the point where at one such employer having a group of instructors together talking about their students was considered wasting time when they should be flying.
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Old 28th Dec 2022, 22:58
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Mentoring of instructors is just as important as mentoring junior line pilots.

Indeed.

It really comes down to the quality and attitude of CPs/CFIs and internal QA systems. Well do I recall my introduction to airlines at Ansett, many years ago. Like most young, overconfident chaps, I thought I knew far more than I did ... it didn't take very long for me to realise that my confidence exceeded my competence, somewhat, at the time.

The other concerning problem is the lack of general study undertaken by the new chums coming up through the ranks. In the olden days, we pored over local and foreign crash comics with wide-eyed horror .. and learnt a bit with each tale told. These days, I see far too many of the new folk who, quite clearly, have no interest in anything beyond what is put in front of them. For example, in a theory class, a year or two ago, I had one young lady remonstrate with me for daring to introduce some trivial, but quite relevant, mathematics when discussing navigation computers and 1:60 things. She was interested solely in what was in her assigned text book. Go figure ?
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Old 28th Dec 2022, 23:05
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That is a very good point, and I agree the level of pre study by many aspiring pilots is generally poor. They will study what they are told to but not go outside that to further their knowledge. This is a big problem for airline training as 30 years ago trainers were dealing with fairly experienced pilots and the training was a chat and some corrective manipulation, but now the new guys are very green and have to not only learn how to fly the line but are still learning weather, dealing with traffic, and just manipulative skills to fly IFR and by the numbers.

I still have a folder back from the 90's where I collected what I thought were good case study crash reports, like NNN (PA-31 1994) into Moorabbin or WGI into Launy and many others. Accidents I put to budding IFR and CPLs to have a read and think where they could have stopped the chain of events.

I always liked discussing NNN with students. Ask the question where do you think he stuffed up?, typical answer 'oh he should never have gone around with the engine windmilling', whilst true, he should never have departed for Moorabbin without re-planning for the days conditions... Then he would not have been running low on fuel due to massively increased headwinds, with two surging engines and aiming across the field at YMMB and being told to go round because he wasn't aligned with a runway, add to that poor fuel leaning and management procedures.

Last edited by 43Inches; 28th Dec 2022 at 23:29.
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Old 28th Dec 2022, 23:33
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Originally Posted by WannaBeBiggles View Post
There are a number of operators that could have been going that route. Gove based operators are a plenty, operators that fly in and out of Katherine are numerous as well. Yes, KA is one of them, but lets keep conjecture out of it until information becomes public.
When you said there are numerous operators, I was curious as to how many. Seems Google Maps shows there are quite a few there (whether it's accurate or not, I don't know??)


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Old 28th Dec 2022, 23:50
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Originally Posted by Kulwin Park View Post
When you said there are numerous operators, I was curious as to how many. Seems Google Maps shows there are quite a few there (whether it's accurate or not, I don't know??)

missing air arnhem
i didnít think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
unsure if arafura are represented
nautilus are a helicopter company
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 00:15
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Originally Posted by Buswinker View Post
missing air arnhem
i didnít think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
unsure if arafura are represented
nautilus are a helicopter company
Katherine had three pilots at their Gove base
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 00:19
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Separately, is it only in Oz that 210s have a record of peeling wings? I’ve not heard of it anywhere else
Noted NACA/NASA test pilot Scott Crossfield (X-1, X-15, dead sticked an F-100 - something company test pilots doubted could be done) lost his life when his 210A broke up. NTSB finding - "The pilot's failure to obtain updated en route weather information, which resulted in his continued instrument flight into a widespread area of severe convective activity, and the air traffic controller's failure to provide adverse weather avoidance assistance, as required by Federal Aviation Administration directives, both of which led to the airplane's encounter with a severe thunderstorm and subsequent loss of control."

Folk turn all sorts of airframes into scrap metal which then rains down from the atmosphere, nothing unique to the 210.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 01:28
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Originally Posted by Buswinker View Post
missing air arnhem
i didnít think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
Air Arnhem closed up shop a few months back and sold their fleet to another operator Ökeep this in mind when you go searching for the rego.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 01:37
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Thatís a loss of control above and doing so can rip the wings off almost any aircraft. Someone managed to do it to a Jabiru fairly recently.

Itís the ones that tear off unannounced that are of the greatest concern, due to corrosion/turbulence etc.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 04:07
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
...
I always liked discussing NNN with students. Ask the question where do you think he stuffed up?, typical answer 'oh he should never have gone around with the engine windmilling', whilst true, he should never have departed for Moorabbin without re-planning for the days conditions... Then he would not have been running low on fuel due to massively increased headwinds, with two surging engines and aiming across the field at YMMB and being told to go round because he wasn't aligned with a runway, add to that poor fuel leaning and management procedures.
Pilot's biggest sin in my opinion was at point 4 from ATSB report:
4. The pilot did not establish the actual quantity of fuel on board the aircraft prior to departure from Cooma.



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Old 29th Dec 2022, 05:02
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An AOPA article
A fair number of 210s have experienced fuel exhaustion, often attributed to improper filling of the integral wing tanks. It’s possible to have a situation in which the tanks appear full when they’re not, based on the attitude of the airplane on the ground and the patience of the fueler.
Could explain a number of Oz 210 fuel exhaustion accidents.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 05:43
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
An AOPA articleCould explain a number of Oz 210 fuel exhaustion accidents.
Maybe 1!!!

Not much time till fuel settles - the pre dip (broom stick) with the fuel added - is simple math.

Most time engine silent mode = fuel on board consumed as per the book figure.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 06:14
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
.. WGI into Launy
Yes, I do remember reading that one. Specifically the part about how a Chieftain will not maintain altitude in a turn with full flap at anything less than 28". I remembered this fact while I was sedately plodding around the circuit in GV in a Chieftain that had a full flap runaway on takeoff, and that alone made me leave the thing running flat out until mid base.
As you are saying, the trivial you pick up from crash comics can be put to use much later on. Nowadays, so many accident reports from a dozen different sources are available on-line, but how much use is made of these ?
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 06:51
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When talking about ageing aircraft breaking up, I don't recall other than 210's recently, and I don't think it's 'ageing' that's causing it? It's a now known corrosion condition right? So continually beating on about ageing aircraft breaking up in flight when it's not happening deflects from the real causes?

Instructors these days can present themselves for an upgrade without any recommendation, when they do this it's mostly always at minimum upgrade time, there are some extremlely poor standard Grade 1's these days. There are also some very good Grade 3 's that are willing to be guided as to when they are ready for 2. Either way, the experience base these days is very low and it's going to get worse, they're not going to stick around for long these days.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 07:10
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Whether or not there was an in flight structural failure, that is unrelated to why the pilot was even up there in that weather, with that experience. Interesting to see what advice the CP or the owner gave him that morning considering the weather.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 07:11
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Maybe 1!!!

Not much time till fuel settles - the pre dip (broom stick) with the fuel added - is simple math.

Most time engine silent mode = fuel on board consumed as per the book figure.
Pretty much. The 210 will use exactly 60L per tacho hour, so using tacho hours on your fuel plan gives you FOB after full tanks down to the liter any time you look at the tacho. It's yet another trick that a lot of people didn't pick up on, nor was there anything of that nature in company ops manual's CAR220 compliance about using it. Not knowing FOB at any time is a system problem, and broom sticks are just a part of it !
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 07:15
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Originally Posted by The Wawa Zone View Post
The 210 will use exactly 60L per tacho hour,
Unless you're operating a KA 210 lean of peak...
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 07:18
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
If it was a QF, VA, Cobham, REX aircraft the companyís name would be all over the news with little/no regard to the crew or families involved.

Keeping the aircraft rego a secret is also unnecessary. Make it public now while the horrible incident is making the news. Maybe the public will be shocked at the age of the aircraft and the health departments/schools/other companies will refuse to put staff on aircraft older then XX years forcing companies to improve their aircraft.
Yes, at some point there has to be an end to this, although I suggest that it will only come when the AVGAS supply in Australia finally dries up.
If the 'Greens' are good for anything it will be to campaign for an end to AVGAS and then everyone will have to fly much newer equivalent small turbine aircraft.
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Old 29th Dec 2022, 07:22
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Originally Posted by Lasiorhinus View Post
Unless you're operating a KA 210 lean of peak...
Well in that case, to KA or not KA, you would be able to add your FBO over the course of a dozen refuels to the top over say, 50 tach hours, and calculate a reliable correction factor to multiply out on the whizz wheel.
Do you think this was an issue here ?
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