Missing light aircraft in the NT
If it was a QF, VA, Cobham, REX aircraft the company’s name would be all over the news with little/no regard to the crew or families involved.
Keeping the aircraft rego a secret is also unnecessary. Make it public now while the horrible incident is making the news. Maybe the public will be shocked at the age of the aircraft and the health departments/schools/other companies will refuse to put staff on aircraft older then XX years forcing companies to improve their aircraft.
Keeping the aircraft rego a secret is also unnecessary. Make it public now while the horrible incident is making the news. Maybe the public will be shocked at the age of the aircraft and the health departments/schools/other companies will refuse to put staff on aircraft older then XX years forcing companies to improve their aircraft.
The following 2 users liked this post by aussieflyboy:
I worked for two Schools that attempted a mentoring program for instructors, both were relatively successful by creating a team leader grade one who acted as a guide for the less experienced. Unfortunately it was entirely pushed within the pilot group and not from management. So mostly fell apart when the lead instructors who set it up left. There were a lot of benefits from the system not the least being standardization and a reduction in training times as you had a group working together with students rather than individuals. I remember a lot of discussions about weather, both dangers and appropriate conditions for training, when students should go solo etc etc... During the program we never had a weather related incident or many incidents at all except a few students doing absent minded student things... It also made solo checks and tests very easy as having a group working together on a student really covered all bases and also made it easier for the student to transition to flying with others as they were not so hung up on the next instructor wanting something different from them.
Sadly my long term in GA only proved to me that no GA company was interested in being better, just getting more students/cash etc...
Even to the point where at one such employer having a group of instructors together talking about their students was considered wasting time when they should be flying.
Sadly my long term in GA only proved to me that no GA company was interested in being better, just getting more students/cash etc...
Even to the point where at one such employer having a group of instructors together talking about their students was considered wasting time when they should be flying.
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Mentoring of instructors is just as important as mentoring junior line pilots.
Indeed.
It really comes down to the quality and attitude of CPs/CFIs and internal QA systems. Well do I recall my introduction to airlines at Ansett, many years ago. Like most young, overconfident chaps, I thought I knew far more than I did ... it didn't take very long for me to realise that my confidence exceeded my competence, somewhat, at the time.
The other concerning problem is the lack of general study undertaken by the new chums coming up through the ranks. In the olden days, we pored over local and foreign crash comics with wide-eyed horror .. and learnt a bit with each tale told. These days, I see far too many of the new folk who, quite clearly, have no interest in anything beyond what is put in front of them. For example, in a theory class, a year or two ago, I had one young lady remonstrate with me for daring to introduce some trivial, but quite relevant, mathematics when discussing navigation computers and 1:60 things. She was interested solely in what was in her assigned text book. Go figure ?
Indeed.
It really comes down to the quality and attitude of CPs/CFIs and internal QA systems. Well do I recall my introduction to airlines at Ansett, many years ago. Like most young, overconfident chaps, I thought I knew far more than I did ... it didn't take very long for me to realise that my confidence exceeded my competence, somewhat, at the time.
The other concerning problem is the lack of general study undertaken by the new chums coming up through the ranks. In the olden days, we pored over local and foreign crash comics with wide-eyed horror .. and learnt a bit with each tale told. These days, I see far too many of the new folk who, quite clearly, have no interest in anything beyond what is put in front of them. For example, in a theory class, a year or two ago, I had one young lady remonstrate with me for daring to introduce some trivial, but quite relevant, mathematics when discussing navigation computers and 1:60 things. She was interested solely in what was in her assigned text book. Go figure ?
The following 2 users liked this post by john_tullamarine:
That is a very good point, and I agree the level of pre study by many aspiring pilots is generally poor. They will study what they are told to but not go outside that to further their knowledge. This is a big problem for airline training as 30 years ago trainers were dealing with fairly experienced pilots and the training was a chat and some corrective manipulation, but now the new guys are very green and have to not only learn how to fly the line but are still learning weather, dealing with traffic, and just manipulative skills to fly IFR and by the numbers.
I still have a folder back from the 90's where I collected what I thought were good case study crash reports, like NNN (PA-31 1994) into Moorabbin or WGI into Launy and many others. Accidents I put to budding IFR and CPLs to have a read and think where they could have stopped the chain of events.
I always liked discussing NNN with students. Ask the question where do you think he stuffed up?, typical answer 'oh he should never have gone around with the engine windmilling', whilst true, he should never have departed for Moorabbin without re-planning for the days conditions... Then he would not have been running low on fuel due to massively increased headwinds, with two surging engines and aiming across the field at YMMB and being told to go round because he wasn't aligned with a runway, add to that poor fuel leaning and management procedures.
I still have a folder back from the 90's where I collected what I thought were good case study crash reports, like NNN (PA-31 1994) into Moorabbin or WGI into Launy and many others. Accidents I put to budding IFR and CPLs to have a read and think where they could have stopped the chain of events.
I always liked discussing NNN with students. Ask the question where do you think he stuffed up?, typical answer 'oh he should never have gone around with the engine windmilling', whilst true, he should never have departed for Moorabbin without re-planning for the days conditions... Then he would not have been running low on fuel due to massively increased headwinds, with two surging engines and aiming across the field at YMMB and being told to go round because he wasn't aligned with a runway, add to that poor fuel leaning and management procedures.
Last edited by 43Inches; 28th Dec 2022 at 23:29.
Originally Posted by WannaBeBiggles
There are a number of operators that could have been going that route. Gove based operators are a plenty, operators that fly in and out of Katherine are numerous as well. Yes, KA is one of them, but lets keep conjecture out of it until information becomes public.
Originally Posted by Kulwin Park
When you said there are numerous operators, I was curious as to how many. Seems Google Maps shows there are quite a few there (whether it's accurate or not, I don't know??)
i didn’t think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
unsure if arafura are represented
nautilus are a helicopter company
Originally Posted by Buswinker
missing air arnhem
i didn’t think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
unsure if arafura are represented
nautilus are a helicopter company
i didn’t think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
unsure if arafura are represented
nautilus are a helicopter company
Separately, is it only in Oz that 210s have a record of peeling wings? I’ve not heard of it anywhere else
Folk turn all sorts of airframes into scrap metal which then rains down from the atmosphere, nothing unique to the 210.
Originally Posted by Buswinker
missing air arnhem
i didn’t think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
i didn’t think Katherine aviation had a gove base but there has been movement on Groote so maybe?
That’s a loss of control above and doing so can rip the wings off almost any aircraft. Someone managed to do it to a Jabiru fairly recently.
It’s the ones that tear off unannounced that are of the greatest concern, due to corrosion/turbulence etc.
It’s the ones that tear off unannounced that are of the greatest concern, due to corrosion/turbulence etc.
Originally Posted by 43Inches
...
I always liked discussing NNN with students. Ask the question where do you think he stuffed up?, typical answer 'oh he should never have gone around with the engine windmilling', whilst true, he should never have departed for Moorabbin without re-planning for the days conditions... Then he would not have been running low on fuel due to massively increased headwinds, with two surging engines and aiming across the field at YMMB and being told to go round because he wasn't aligned with a runway, add to that poor fuel leaning and management procedures.
I always liked discussing NNN with students. Ask the question where do you think he stuffed up?, typical answer 'oh he should never have gone around with the engine windmilling', whilst true, he should never have departed for Moorabbin without re-planning for the days conditions... Then he would not have been running low on fuel due to massively increased headwinds, with two surging engines and aiming across the field at YMMB and being told to go round because he wasn't aligned with a runway, add to that poor fuel leaning and management procedures.
4. The pilot did not establish the actual quantity of fuel on board the aircraft prior to departure from Cooma.
An AOPA article
Could explain a number of Oz 210 fuel exhaustion accidents.
A fair number of 210s have experienced fuel exhaustion, often attributed to improper filling of the integral wing tanks. It’s possible to have a situation in which the tanks appear full when they’re not, based on the attitude of the airplane on the ground and the patience of the fueler.
Originally Posted by megan
An AOPA articleCould explain a number of Oz 210 fuel exhaustion accidents.
Not much time till fuel settles - the pre dip (broom stick) with the fuel added - is simple math.
Most time engine silent mode = fuel on board consumed as per the book figure.
Originally Posted by 43Inches
.. WGI into Launy
As you are saying, the trivial you pick up from crash comics can be put to use much later on. Nowadays, so many accident reports from a dozen different sources are available on-line, but how much use is made of these ?
When talking about ageing aircraft breaking up, I don't recall other than 210's recently, and I don't think it's 'ageing' that's causing it? It's a now known corrosion condition right? So continually beating on about ageing aircraft breaking up in flight when it's not happening deflects from the real causes?
Instructors these days can present themselves for an upgrade without any recommendation, when they do this it's mostly always at minimum upgrade time, there are some extremlely poor standard Grade 1's these days. There are also some very good Grade 3 's that are willing to be guided as to when they are ready for 2. Either way, the experience base these days is very low and it's going to get worse, they're not going to stick around for long these days.
Instructors these days can present themselves for an upgrade without any recommendation, when they do this it's mostly always at minimum upgrade time, there are some extremlely poor standard Grade 1's these days. There are also some very good Grade 3 's that are willing to be guided as to when they are ready for 2. Either way, the experience base these days is very low and it's going to get worse, they're not going to stick around for long these days.
Whether or not there was an in flight structural failure, that is unrelated to why the pilot was even up there in that weather, with that experience. Interesting to see what advice the CP or the owner gave him that morning considering the weather.
Originally Posted by Bend alot
Maybe 1!!!
Not much time till fuel settles - the pre dip (broom stick) with the fuel added - is simple math.
Most time engine silent mode = fuel on board consumed as per the book figure.
Not much time till fuel settles - the pre dip (broom stick) with the fuel added - is simple math.
Most time engine silent mode = fuel on board consumed as per the book figure.
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
If it was a QF, VA, Cobham, REX aircraft the company’s name would be all over the news with little/no regard to the crew or families involved.
Keeping the aircraft rego a secret is also unnecessary. Make it public now while the horrible incident is making the news. Maybe the public will be shocked at the age of the aircraft and the health departments/schools/other companies will refuse to put staff on aircraft older then XX years forcing companies to improve their aircraft.
Keeping the aircraft rego a secret is also unnecessary. Make it public now while the horrible incident is making the news. Maybe the public will be shocked at the age of the aircraft and the health departments/schools/other companies will refuse to put staff on aircraft older then XX years forcing companies to improve their aircraft.
If the 'Greens' are good for anything it will be to campaign for an end to AVGAS and then everyone will have to fly much newer equivalent small turbine aircraft.
Originally Posted by Lasiorhinus
Unless you're operating a KA 210 lean of peak...
Do you think this was an issue here ?
