Too late for 2022?

[runway16]

Tossbag .........

If you need an additional course after a CPL to learn the above....................

Maybe then the newbee will pick up what the flying school did not teach them !

[tossbag]

Yeah, there's a bit of that, but flying school needs to teach a candidate to be on time with clean shoes and an ironed shirt?

[Flying Bear]

Originally Posted by Giraffesarecool

If you can't weed out "grossly underprepared" pilots during an interview/check flight and instead direct them to your flight training business that's a bit dubious.

When your companies require the paid course before employment that's downright shady.

I can see your perspective.

However, from the charter operator’s point of view it gives a good opportunity over several days to see the individual characters of the pilots as well as the obvious benefit of specific type training that is contextual to the operating environment.

Better that way, then offering applicants the nebulous BS about requiring some random amount of “200 series” time (which may or may not have actually taught the aeroplane), or total time. We take first starters, many companies won’t, and don’t care about total time or crap about “200 series”. We will train it - properly - but given the length of tenure / loyalty of most first job pilots, we’d go broke if we continuously gave it away. Guess what? You CAN’T often weed out bad attitudes based on an interview or quick “check flight”.

In my experience, the difference between a 200 hr pilot of good character and a 500 hr pilot is negligible (from a technical standpoint) - so the trick is to find junior pilots who actually care about putting in at work and helping their employer to sustain / grow their business.

Finally, the GA course is not marketed as a “buy a job with us” product - that is a label attached to it by the hopefuls based on the business processes of our other companies. Of itself, the course offers solid training and experience - and we genuinely hope (believe) that all who do it gain useful technical development.

But I’m happy to accept your judgement. BTW, for my awareness of your expertise, can you summarise your experience in personnel (pilot) management and how many pilots you have employed and given opportunity to?

[lucille]

Originally Posted by Flying Bear

In my experience, the difference between a 200 hr pilot of good character and a 500 hr pilot is negligible (from a technical standpoint) -

It really depends on where and how that extra 300 hours was obtained.

But yes, mostly, I get where you’re coming from, but has it ever been different? 500 hour TT instructors teaching CPL students, who themselves were taught by other 500 hour TT instructors.

How GA employers can expect a kid who has never left the city or been out of range of mummy’s apron strings to suddenly become a crusty old, self reliant bushy overnight has me scratching my head.

[Giraffesarecool]

Originally Posted by Flying Bear

However, from the charter operator’s point of view it gives a good opportunity over several days to see the individual characters of the pilots as well as the obvious benefit of specific type training that is contextual to the operating environment.

You just described someone paying for a job interview.

Originally Posted by Flying Bear

We will train it - properly - but given the length of tenure / loyalty of most first job pilots, we’d go broke if we continuously gave it away. Guess what? You CAN’T often weed out bad attitudes based on an interview or quick “check flight”.

If a company can't retain low time pilots with limited prospects that probably says more about the company than it does about the pilots.

Originally Posted by Flying Bear

In my experience, the difference between a 200 hr pilot of good character and a 500 hr pilot is negligible (from a technical standpoint) - so the trick is to find junior pilots who actually care about putting in at work and helping their employer to sustain / grow their business.

200 hrs to 500 hrs is 4 months. I don't agree with the idea there's negligible improvement in 4 months of flying.

Originally Posted by Flying Bear

Finally, the GA course is not marketed as a “buy a job with us” product - that is a label attached to it by the hopefuls based on the business processes of our other companies. Of itself, the course offers solid training and experience - and we genuinely hope (believe) that all who do it gain useful technical development.

I understand I've probably come off as a bit hostile (nice little dig in your last paragraph) but I do agree a training course like yours holds benefit.

What I don't agree with is that two companies that you control require potential employees to undertake a paid course from your own third company.

[Mach E Avelli]

Originally Posted by Giraffesarecool

200 hrs to 500 hrs is 4 months. I don't agree with the idea there's negligible improvement in 4 months of flying..

What I don't agree with is that two companies that you control require potential employees to undertake a paid course from your own third company.

Neither do I agree with such a policy, as this has 'cartel' all over it. But it's their train set, so for as long as they don't break any anti-discrimination laws they can set whatever entry rules they choose.
I wonder if a pilot turned up with 1000 hours of Cessna 206/210 time, tropical flying experience, bus licence , first aid ticket, and of course a clean pair of boots and freshly pressed shirt, would they employ him/her? Maybe not. Too many bad habits to be un-learned first, via their 'GA Ready' course.

[Flying Bear]

Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli

I wonder if a pilot turned up with 1000 hours of Cessna 206/210 time, tropical flying experience, bus licence , first aid ticket, and of course a clean pair of boots and freshly pressed shirt, would they employ him/her? Maybe not. Too many bad habits to be un-learned first, via their 'GA Ready' course.

I’d be happy to speak with them, first question would be about why they are looking at an entry-level flying job…

I’d probably also counsel them to not spend on a GA Ready course - as they need to be saving that money to pay for their A320 Type Rating so they can widen the field of airlines they can apply to get a job with…

Despite the opinions for and against GA courses, however so called, the real issue is that the standard of pilot training across the board in Australia is poor - and does not prepare pilots for industry / work. Not the pilot’s fault, but certainly not the fault of the GA operator that seems to be expected to make up the shortfall - totally at their expense.

Maybe some of the criticism / judgement here could be directed at the sausage factories?

[flyer2022]

Originally Posted by Flying Bear

I’d be happy to speak with them, first question would be about why they are looking at an entry-level flying job…

I’d probably also counsel them to not spend on a GA Ready course - as they need to be saving that money to pay for their A320 Type Rating so they can widen the field of airlines they can apply to get a job with…

Despite the opinions for and against GA courses, however so called, the real issue is that the standard of pilot training across the board in Australia is poor - and does not prepare pilots for industry / work. Not the pilot’s fault, but certainly not the fault of the GA operator that seems to be expected to make up the shortfall - totally at their expense.

Maybe some of the criticism / judgement here could be directed at the sausage factories?

Would you still expect a pilot trained at your school to complete a GA ready course to be considered for employment? Or does your school make up for the shortfall during training?

[Karunch]

Originally Posted by Flying Bear

Despite the opinions for and against GA courses, however so called, the real issue is that the standard of pilot training across the board in Australia is poor - and does not prepare pilots for industry / work. Not the pilot’s fault, but certainly not the fault of the GA operator that seems to be expected to make up the shortfall - totally at their expense.

Maybe some of the criticism / judgement here could be directed at the sausage factories?

Precisely. The poor airmanship displayed on a daily basis at Australia's GA airports demonstrates the above points graphically. Rectifying an inability to refuel from a bowser, directing propwash at other aircraft, power against brakes, high rpm on gravel, jet size circuits etc is not the role of charter operators. This is flying school domain.

The capital city schools on occasion produce airline ready candidates but GA is a specialty & training is required. I suspect most GA ready course providers would prefer the need was not there.

If we drill down to attribute blame- the sausage factory marketing, large student volumes & employment practices (dilution of experience every 2 years) & the younger generations apparent disinterest in the menial tasks of aircraft operation are significant contributors.

[172heavy]

Originally Posted by FrothyFriday

Hi Gents,

Smashed out a couple hundred hours over the east coast during lockdown after finishing my CPL and trying my luck in Darwin. Have sent resumes to all my contacts but haven't had an offer worth taking yet.. Just wondering if it's too late to head up and knock on some doors for the coming season. Hoping to get in and out asap.

Cheers
FF

Hi mate,

Seems some GA (general abuse) individuals have turned this thread into a topic about themselves.

To answer your question... its never too late to head up north. As I was once told, every day you have a CPL and you're not in the NT is a day you're not getting a job. There is some truth in that saying, however, there are a plenty of jobs everywhere at the moment due to the movement. Most of these jobs are not being advertised as there is no requirement to waste cash on advertising when companies have inboxes full of resumes and door knockers are rivalling Jehovah's Witnesses.

Right attitude, right place and time will get you a chat. The reality is 1 out of every 10 pilots you went to flight school with will makes it to the lines, the other 9 will choose a different career or remain on 50K in GA indefinitely.

Heres the no BS run down on YPDN:

Hardys/Fly Tiwi: 800hrs + wet season and you can measure your man hood next to the rest of the wannabes at this company, that's after they give you a sim ride and set you up to fail by putting the 430 on VLOC and telling you to fly a SID. This company will feed you into the airlines, you just have to deal with the BS on the road to a right seat.

Territory Air Services known locally as TAS: Hands down the best operator in DN. They actually know how to treat people like humans. Downside is they are only really good for single hours, twin will come if you hang around long enough and like calling other operators and dobbing on their pilots like a 4 year old.

Air Frontier: good hours at one of their remote bases once line checked. Expect not to be paid for up to 3 months whilst living in your car or on the hangar floor doing the PPDC (pilot professional development course). The owner is a little more hands off since losing their medical and the company has made good progression in terms of safety over the past few years.

Flight Standards/Kakadu Air/Marthakal (elcho Island): 5K GA Ready course if you preform well with the right attitude you'll land a job, bust duty and be paid below award. Bonus points if you're a loader at Tasfast in Melbourne as you probably got a personal invitation last week to GA Ready and those points are gone if you didn't take the opportunity, welcome to the 9 who never made it.

Afarura: Haven't heard much of them since they got kicked off Groote last year but they are still around. Hot starting a continental is beyond the skills taught here.

Any company not mentioned here is worth applying to, dont forget to check out Gun Air at YOEN. Bachelor and north WA are also viable options.

"Hoping to get in and out quickly" good thing Qlink just dropped their minimums to hopes and dreams.

Good luck!

[Flying Bear]

Originally Posted by flyer2022

Would you still expect a pilot trained at your school to complete a GA ready course to be considered for employment? Or does your school make up for the shortfall during training?

Absolutely.

We have employed, or facilitated placement into other companies, nearly all of the CPL holders we have trained from scratch, or pre-PPL level.

Caveat… there have not been a great deal of those (less than a dozen in five years of operations) - as most young trainee pilots can’t see past the glossy brochures of the sausage factories to consider learning yo fly in the region where they are likely to be initially employed.

But - we love employing our own trainees where we can & are happy to back our own product.

[Kundry]

If facilitated then why?

[CFD]

If its of any help, Arafura advertised yesterday.
Pilot Job - Single Engine Line Pilot (afap.org.au)

[Duck Pilot]

Fact is that the standard of the average newly minted CPL holder is low with a few exceptions, those being that the pilot was trained by a good school and/or the pilot has another qualification/trade behind them that has provided him/her with life skills in order to adapt, learn and operate safely as a low time GA pilot, particularly in isolation and in challenging operational environments.

As far as pressed clean shirts, polished shoes, neat grooming and not being on the piss all night and fronting up for work the next day is all very relevant.

GA ready course is a good investment for those considering it, certainly not money wasted as additional skills and valuable knowledge acquired are essential for a low time CPL holder. Forget the IFR rating, get a good solid 1,000 hours PIC that will consolidate the initial CPL training and make you into a better pilot! This can only occur with good training and no bad habits!

[tossbag]

What I could have used most was some experience talking to girls and escalating a relationship.

The one area where experience means nothing. Unless of course you go hang out in the family court to get the full experience.

[Mach E Avelli]

Originally Posted by Kundry

The Darwin fascist cultivates several mini-me's for his operations (young, white and preferably shaved headed) and relies on the scapegoat of ill-equipped east coast CPLs to perpetuate the business model. I've never been hiring-firing-perspiring in the top end, but I'd question the amount of people actually fronting up without knowing how to iron a shirt or use a declared density chart. Even to those who do front up without key non technical and technical skills, I don't understand how they can't be taught in a couple of days. Drum refuelling only takes one 20 minute demo for someone to be able to go and do themselves. In my personal experience, I had most bits of airmanship and general "life-out-of-home skills" under control when I first fronted up. What I could have used most was some experience talking to girls and escalating a relationship.

Does he require chicks to shave their heads as well? Or are females exempt from the fascist look?
As for ill-equipped pilots fresh from CPL training - it was ever thus, even in my time many moons ago. I recall one C grade (as it was back then) instructor who was all of two years older than me and had less of an idea than I did about several dual training exercises. Somehow we survived.
The main saving grace back then was that the final check had to be done by a DCA Examiner, so flight schools never got to 'graduate' their own. But overall, I don't think the training standards were any better back then - if you got lucky you got a crusty old ex wartime pilot as your instructor sometimes, though often had to endure what today would be classed as verbal abuse if you screwed up. Testing standards may have been higher but training standards were not.
Today's pilots benefit from (or are burdened by, depending on your point of view) extra subjects like human factors, dangerous goods, security etc that were unheard of back in the good old days, and I am sure today's graduates have a much better grip on electronics than we did. Back then there was very basic radio theory to get the licence. Navigation, Flight Planning, Principles of Flight and Meteorology were written exams, so there was no chance of fluking passes - as is the case with today's multi choice exams, but whether we retained the knowledge any better for it I can't say. Is today's technical knowledge better or worse?
It does not help that Australian GA seems burdened with bull**** that would not be tolerated in any workplace in the real world. I have witnessed (and also been on the receiving end of) two hour briefings/oral quizzes to do a simple instrument rating renewal, then 45 minute nit-picking de-briefs, when the candidate has passed to the required standard. Too much trivia, too much of the instructor showing superior knowledge and experience at all costs. Too much of CASA making it ever more complex simply to add pages to the MOS.

My observations in general - from some 50 years of training and checking pilots on to heavy twins (DC 3 anyone?), transport category turboprops and jets.
Freshly-minted graduates (mostly from so-called 'sausage factories') soon come to grips with operational requirements:
- if you tell them once not to open up power if it will blast dirt or people or aircraft, they get it
- if you require them to climb a ladder with a refuelling hose, earth it, stick in in a hole and ensure the hole is covered up after, they get it. Of course it pays to climb the ladder yourself afterward to check that the hole is indeed plugged
- if you have a gravel runway technique and show them once, then have them practice it, they soon get it
- if you want your engines handled a certain way and give them appropriate material to self-study, plus some supervision, they get it

On the other hand - and again generalising:
- pilots who have been in GA all their life are usually there because they did not make it to anything bigger and better
- instructors who have been in GA all their life have a very narrow area of expertise - the best instructors are often those who return to GA after a long time elsewhere, have nothing to prove, made enough money to be comfortable, and now seek a healthier lifestyle
- THE absolutely THE most difficult pilots to train onto advanced equipment - or down train to less advanced equipment - are those who know only one thing, whether it be GA or a particular airline. Usually mid 40's to late 50's types

Give me the new graduate any day, invest a bit of time in them and accept that if they are any good, after a couple of years they will move on. An operator who can't afford that probably can't afford maintenance or much else either.....

[Hamley]

Don’t forget kids that some operators will PAY YOU to train on the C210.

After being checked to line you’ll know all there is to know and be strutting around with the caravan specialists at Monnies in no time.

[Flying Bear]

G’day Mach E,

The answer to your first two questions is - no, and yes, respectively…

You make some valid points - I don’t necessarily agree with them, from my standpoint and experience - but your response is considered and helpful in the debate.

However, these crappy little airplanes we fly are virtually uninsurable nowadays unless you have 500-1000 hrs total time - and you would, no doubt, appreciate the issues remote area GA operators would have sourcing such pilots. Unless, you can offer tailored type-specific training. I won’t post my insurance policies on here - but I hope you can accept my integrity on that point.

Besides, accusations of fascism aside, I’ve always preferred to use my businesses as an opportunity to provide experience and mentoring to new starters in industry… but, yes, I have expectations that go beyond standards of personal grooming that, sadly, are misrepresented and I refute the allegations levelled on here by some.

I won’t feed the trolls in this thread any further, but I am comfortable with my business practices, whilst accepting that they are not agreed to by all.

Hopefully the OP has realised the length and breadth of the viper pit that is aviation - and I don’t expect that it changes to any great extent in the airline world! All the best to him and the cohort of newbies in 2022 - I reckon things will be better for them this year than in the previous couple!

[morno]

You’re just another GA company that is stuck in the past and takes advantage of new pilots.

There is no need for a stupid “GA Ready” course, that’s just a big crock of ****. If you just taught them properly during line training, it’d be more than adequate.

[Giraffesarecool]

Originally Posted by morno

You’re just another GA company that is stuck in the past and takes advantage of new pilots.

There is no need for a stupid “GA Ready” course, that’s just a big crock of ****. If you just taught them properly during line training, it’d be more than adequate.

The course is simply a way to get new pilots to pay for their own icus. The companies who require it (apparently as part of their insurance?) are the ones running it. Funny how other companies can and do hire pilots below 500 hrs with no such insurance problems.