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Sham contracting job on AFAP

Old 24th Sep 2021, 07:48
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Provided you're meticulously careful in checking the provenance and publisher of the information, a thing called 'google search' regularly produces useful information on all sorts of subjects. One of those subjects is the entitlements of casual employees and the obligations of their employers, in Australia. Give a google search on that subject a go!
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 08:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Provided you're meticulously careful in checking the provenance and publisher of the information, a thing called 'google search' regularly produces useful information on all sorts of subjects. One of those subjects is the entitlements of casual employees and the obligations of their employers, in Australia. Give a google search on that subject a go!
Now look what you've done leady. The Commander and Chief (she who must be obeyed) Administrator said "are you applying for your 5 days of unpaid domestic violence leave

Lead Balloon Indeed!!

Last edited by Xeptu; 24th Sep 2021 at 08:27.
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 08:35
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Your biggest problem is likely to be compulsory employer superannuation contributions. A long second place: employee long service leave entitlements. Both will bite you 'later' if you're not managing them now.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 10:27
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Last night a poster on here wrote a post that if true would easily confirm the OP’s concerns.

By the time I went away n googled the company and it’s parent company’s annual report etc then came back, they’d perhaps thought better of it and removed their post - anyway it’s disappeared.

To that person I’d say there are actually ways to claw back entitlements, in a calm fair way, without incurring “five figure sums”. And still retain your respect and dignity in a tiny industry. PM me if you wish.

Allegedly, inter alia, without prejudice etc..
telling your employees that “they have to get ABNs and become independent contractors” seems like a clear path to a $66600 penalty - per pilot!!! And you’d still have to pay your pilots according to the award, so gain nothing.

Regards.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 21:06
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Your biggest problem is likely to be compulsory employer superannuation contributions. A long second place: employee long service leave entitlements. Both will bite you 'later' if you're not managing them now.
I would check pretty quick on that supa.Under the superannuation guarantee, employers have to pay superannuation contributions of 10% of an employee's ordinary time earnings when:
  • an employee is paid $450 or more before tax in a month and is:
  • over 18 years, or
  • under 18 years and works over 30 hours a week.
If eligible, the super guarantee applies to all types of employees including:
  • full-time employees
  • part-time employees
  • casual employees.
Temporary residents are also eligible for super.

Super has to be paid at least every 3 months and into the employee's nominated account.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 21:24
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ResBunny View Post
Last night a poster on here wrote a post that if true would easily confirm the OP’s concerns.

By the time I went away n googled the company and it’s parent company’s annual report etc then came back, they’d perhaps thought better of it and removed their post - anyway it’s disappeared.

To that person I’d say there are actually ways to claw back entitlements, in a calm fair way, without incurring “five figure sums”. And still retain your respect and dignity in a tiny industry. PM me if you wish.

Allegedly, inter alia, without prejudice etc..
telling your employees that “they have to get ABNs and become independent contractors” seems like a clear path to a $66600 penalty - per pilot!!! And you’d still have to pay your pilots according to the award, so gain nothing.

Regards.
In real independent contractor arrangements, there is no "award". The contract price is the contract price agreed between the parties.

Awards apply to employees. A real independent contractor is not an employee.

And the operator doesn't have to pay compulsory super, PAYG tax, leave etc etc.

That's the whole point of these arrangements.

In the case of air operators these arrangements are usually shams.

However, there are examples of 'real' independent contractor arrangements with pilots. I could, for example, enter a contract with a pilot to provide me with the service of flying me in my aircraft from A to B on Monday. That can be a completely legitimate independent contactor arrangement.

The contract says the pilot is providing me the service of flying me in my aircraft from A to B on Monday and the pilot is entirely responsible for the safe and lawful conduct of the flight. I have no power of supervision or control of the pilot's activities in that capacity, other than the nomination of the route and day. The contract says that the pilot is not, and must not represent him or herself as being, my employee or agent. The price I pay is whatever we negotiate and agree. Provided the pilot has given me his/her ABN, I pay the agreed contract price and that's that. These circumstances in no way create an employer/employee relationship between the pilot and me.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 23:07
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
No super payments that I am aware of. I'll check on that one.
Indeed I think it'll be worth checking, especially given what you've described the employment arrangement as being.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 23:10
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
The contract says the pilot is providing me the service of flying me in my aircraft from A to B on Monday and the pilot is entirely responsible for the safe and lawful conduct of the flight. I have no power of supervision or control of the pilot's activities in that capacity, other than the nomination of the route and day. The contract says that the pilot is not, and must not represent him or herself as being, my employee or agent. The price I pay is whatever we negotiate and agree. Provided the pilot has given me his/her ABN, I pay the agreed contract price and that's that. These circumstances in no way create an employer/employee relationship between the pilot and me.
In such a legitimate arrangement, would "I "as the aircraft owner need to be on board or can it be any of my staff or company equipment. who takes care of workcover and liability for the operation.
Who has effective operational control.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 23:39
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Better get a lawyer, son; better get a real good one.

In my case, the "effective operational control" of the flight in which I'm carried in my aircraft from A to B is the responsibility of the pilot whom I've engaged to provide that service. The personal transportation of the owner of an aircraft is a private operation for which an AOC is not required. (Cue all the folklore subscribers to start arguing about classification of operations. To touch on a theme in another thread: I couldn't be bothered engaging in that argument for yet another pointless time.) All your complicated permutations, Xeptu, raise other complicated issues.

Your biggest problem, at the moment, seems to be the rights of and your obligations to those whom you describe as casual employees.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 23:53
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Your biggest problem, at the moment, seems to be the rights of and your obligations to those whom you describe as casual employees.
I don't see it as a problem, let's not create something that isn't there. I had never heard of an "independent contractor" arrangement before, it's not something I would consider anyway.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 00:21
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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You enter into an "independent contractor" arrangement each time you pay a mechanic to service your car or you pay a LAME to conduct an annual on your aircraft (unless both are your employees....).
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 00:27
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
You enter into an "independent contractor" arrangement each time you pay a mechanic to service your car or you pay a LAME to conduct an annual on your aircraft (unless both are your employees....).
Sure but then they meet all the regulatory requirements of their trade and business. What I understood we are talking about is when that doesn't exist, ie a flying instructor not employed by anyone, whom you have engaged to perform a task.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 00:50
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
Sure but then they meet all the regulatory requirements of their trade and business. ...
How do you know they do? You know they are obliged to, but how do you know if they are complying with those obligations?

Do you check the LAME's licence? Do you check the CAR 30 approval? Do you check that all the approved maintenance data is up to date? Do you check that the torque wrenches on the toolboard are in calibration?

Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
... What I understood we are talking about is when that doesn't exist, ie a flying instructor not employed by anyone, whom you have engaged to perform a task.
As I said, I can enter a contract with "a pilot" to fly me in my aircraft from A to B on Monday. The contract will include a promise by the pilot to the effect everything will be done in accordance with the law. How do I know if the pilot is complying with that clause? I'm just a dumb rich person who owns an aircraft.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 01:08
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
How do you know they do? You know they are obliged to, but how do you know if they are complying with those obligations?

Do you check the LAME's licence? Do you check the CAR 30 approval? Do you check that all the approved maintenance data is up to date? Do you check that the torque wrenches on the toolboard are in calibration?

As I said, I can enter a contract with "a pilot" to fly me in my aircraft from A to B on Monday. The contract will include a promise by the pilot to the effect everything will be done in accordance with the law. How do I know if the pilot is complying with that clause? I'm just a dumb rich person who owns an aircraft.
Do you Check, YES! I fill the role of maintenance controller, AD compliance, routine maintenance compliance, well kept records. Along with a statement of compliance for the organisation. The organisations head office, organisational structure, licences, approvals, registration ABN.

I can enter a contract
You can and your equally responsible for that contract, it's your equipment. If someone else drives your car with your consent and it's crashed, it's on you the owner.

Last edited by Xeptu; 26th Sep 2021 at 01:55.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 01:15
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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You're responding to arguments I haven't made.

Best for you to now focus on confirming compliance with your superannuation guarantee obligations in relation to the people you've described as casual employees.

Good luck with it all.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 01:38
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
You're responding to arguments I haven't made.

Best for you to now focus on confirming compliance with your superannuation guarantee obligations in relation to the people you've described as casual employees.

Good luck with it all.
I did, it's compliant, but thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't sure. I wasn't in any way critising you I hope you didn't see it that way. I support most of your arguments by the way.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 03:42
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I’m sure there are legitimate uses for contracting pilots, but I have personally seen GA employers do some dodgy stuff with sham contracting including:

- Employing pilots as ‘contractors’ (ABN required) to avoid paying super, avoid liability. Legal action forced the employer to pay super (kicking and screaming). Pilots remained as ‘contractors’ despite essentially being casual employees.

- Below award pay and conditions written into the ‘contract’ for casual employees. Existing employees being asked to sign new ‘contract’ with below award pay and conditions. No allowances because it’s not in the ‘contract’

GA award pay isn’t much to begin with. But these greedy white-liverd dogs can’t help but write up cow handed ‘contracts’ just to squeeze a little bit more profit out of people. All your employees hate you, even if they’re smiling.

You can’t ‘contract’ your way out of basic minimum obligations per the award.

I’m not commenting on the above skydiving job because I know nothing about it.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 04:23
  #38 (permalink)  
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Sham contracting usually exploits newest and the most vulnerable pilots because they don’t feel like they have the ability to say no and demand to be paid in accordance with the award. If this is in fact a sham contracting job, it’s wrong that the AFAP is perpetuating exploitation of pilots by carrying this ad.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 04:43
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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I have no idea about this operator or this job but my observations of the skydiving industry is that it should be able to afford to pay a decent amount of money. I certainly wouldn't work for them for anything less than well above the equivalent of the award. Dropping skydivers is not without risk and demands a careful operator and pilot.

That said, it is not up to the AFAP to check what the contract is about before putting up the ad. Ads for jobs on AFAP have or were free to place as a service to pilots. It is up to the pilot to determine whether the job is any good or not. Caveat emptor has always applied in aviation and probably always will.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 11:18
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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If this is in fact a sham contracting job, it’s wrong that the AFAP is perpetuating exploitation of pilots by carrying this ad.
You don't NEED unions like the AFAP if sham jobs didn't exist. The AFAP is just looking after its own interest. Advertise sham job, get exploited pilots to sign up to the union, then the union can go the operator in court.
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