What Makes a "2 Pilot Aeroplane" a 2 Pilot Aeroplane
Thread Starter
What Makes a "2 Pilot Aeroplane" a 2 Pilot Aeroplane
Ok, I'm not talking about a 777, although they are talking about single pilot cruise. I'm not talking about knobs and buttons and their placement but more ideology.
50 years ago when the first Citation came out, it had to have 2 pilots by law because it was a jet...all 300 and something kts of it. Now we have Phenom 300's that weigh twice as much and go 100 kts faster and is certified as single pilot. It apparently has wonderful avionics and automation that reduce the workload greatly. It used to be a limit of 5,700kg for single pilot, the phenom is around 8,500 kg. So why arbitarily stop there. Lets talk about 2 steps in GA land. A Citation Longitude and say a Gulfsatream G700. To make it simpler we'll make it Private Ops only - meaning no commercial pressure or schedules etc. You fly only if you want to fly.
Is stepping up to a Longitude then further up to a G700 intrinsically more difficult. Military types fly G700 equivalent weight fast jets single pilot onto aircraft carriers at night. Yes, that's a much more controlled situation with external resources etc. The Longitude seems like a bigger Phenom. The performance of the Longitude is a little sportier, but not by a huge margin.So is it mostly a throwback to earlier days.
What got me thinking was after binge watching Youtube from the USA, they are operating Latitudes and Longitudes (and other exotic types) with I presume the type rated rich owner in the left hand seat and any kid/wife with a PPL and an instrument rating. Some of these kids look really young. They seem to operate as a single pilot too, some right seaters don't even read the checklist.Yet in Oz we need two comand type rated dudes up front.Could we see the max weight for single pilot private ops dramatically increased?
Thoughts anyone.
50 years ago when the first Citation came out, it had to have 2 pilots by law because it was a jet...all 300 and something kts of it. Now we have Phenom 300's that weigh twice as much and go 100 kts faster and is certified as single pilot. It apparently has wonderful avionics and automation that reduce the workload greatly. It used to be a limit of 5,700kg for single pilot, the phenom is around 8,500 kg. So why arbitarily stop there. Lets talk about 2 steps in GA land. A Citation Longitude and say a Gulfsatream G700. To make it simpler we'll make it Private Ops only - meaning no commercial pressure or schedules etc. You fly only if you want to fly.
Is stepping up to a Longitude then further up to a G700 intrinsically more difficult. Military types fly G700 equivalent weight fast jets single pilot onto aircraft carriers at night. Yes, that's a much more controlled situation with external resources etc. The Longitude seems like a bigger Phenom. The performance of the Longitude is a little sportier, but not by a huge margin.So is it mostly a throwback to earlier days.
What got me thinking was after binge watching Youtube from the USA, they are operating Latitudes and Longitudes (and other exotic types) with I presume the type rated rich owner in the left hand seat and any kid/wife with a PPL and an instrument rating. Some of these kids look really young. They seem to operate as a single pilot too, some right seaters don't even read the checklist.Yet in Oz we need two comand type rated dudes up front.Could we see the max weight for single pilot private ops dramatically increased?
Thoughts anyone.
Slightly off the topic but;
Thems were the rules back last century.
Like we could not land at AF in a Citation because it was a jet even though we had a gravel kit. We were told that one after we had landed and were taxing to Rex.
I had a 30 minute argument with an ATC gentleman in Darwin who would not sign my IFR flight plan because I was flying a jet and I had planned to land on a gravel runway
The examples above were because there was no concept of what a light jet could do or were approved to do.
50 years ago when the first Citation came out, it had to have 2 pilots by law because it was a jet...all 300 and something kts of it. Now we have Phenom 300's that weigh twice as much and go 100 kts faster and is certified as single pilot
Like we could not land at AF in a Citation because it was a jet even though we had a gravel kit. We were told that one after we had landed and were taxing to Rex.
I had a 30 minute argument with an ATC gentleman in Darwin who would not sign my IFR flight plan because I was flying a jet and I had planned to land on a gravel runway
The examples above were because there was no concept of what a light jet could do or were approved to do.
It is a very interesting question. If an aircraft is certified single pilot by the respected authority then that’s what it is as per the manuals etc.
Now things change with different authorities when it comes to private flying or commercial flying. For commercial ops some require a second pilot or ‘safety pilot’ in the RHS that doesn’t even need to be type rated. At other times during private flying it can be an insurance requirement to keep premiums down. Pretty sure actual requirements are down to the authorities.
Some of the light jets can be a handful, they are fine while everything is going fine, however throw in at system failure, wx, etc all while belting along at 400kts they can be a handful, hence why some authorities required two pilot commercial ops.
Well that’s my take on it through personal experience.
Now things change with different authorities when it comes to private flying or commercial flying. For commercial ops some require a second pilot or ‘safety pilot’ in the RHS that doesn’t even need to be type rated. At other times during private flying it can be an insurance requirement to keep premiums down. Pretty sure actual requirements are down to the authorities.
Some of the light jets can be a handful, they are fine while everything is going fine, however throw in at system failure, wx, etc all while belting along at 400kts they can be a handful, hence why some authorities required two pilot commercial ops.
Well that’s my take on it through personal experience.
I’ll answer for the US market.
The country is run by three professions:
Historically it was ergonomics. Can you reach critical system switches etc.
Now it’s “can we get insurance” or will we be sued out of existence at the first smoking hole in the ground.
Certification is a lengthy and complex operation which I’m not very familiar with but have a working knowledge of. Single pilot certification may bring extra expenses that the manufacturer will have to recoup over a production run.
If their primary market is not overly interested in single pilot ops then why bother.
Let’s be honest, Part 91 operations you can get a right seater for free or just hotel and expenses.
The country is run by three professions:
- Doctors
- Lawyers
- Insurance agents
Historically it was ergonomics. Can you reach critical system switches etc.
Now it’s “can we get insurance” or will we be sued out of existence at the first smoking hole in the ground.
Certification is a lengthy and complex operation which I’m not very familiar with but have a working knowledge of. Single pilot certification may bring extra expenses that the manufacturer will have to recoup over a production run.
If their primary market is not overly interested in single pilot ops then why bother.
Let’s be honest, Part 91 operations you can get a right seater for free or just hotel and expenses.
The Metro conundrum
From my memory, but be gentle, I am getting old, the Metroliner 111 was certified as both Single pilot or 2 Crew in Australia. It weighed in at around 7200kg MTOW, so well above 5700kg which would normally require an ATPL. I seem to remember it was a "Grandfather" rule from the Merlin/Metro 11.
The weird thing was, you could fly it Single pilot without an ATPL, but if you flew it 2 Crew, you needed an ATPL.
I can't remember why the differing ATPL requirement, something about the Multi-crew thing? Maybe someone from the Jetcraft/Pelair freight world can fill in the blanks.
I think the B1900 and the KingAir 350 have the same requirements.
The weird thing was, you could fly it Single pilot without an ATPL, but if you flew it 2 Crew, you needed an ATPL.
I can't remember why the differing ATPL requirement, something about the Multi-crew thing? Maybe someone from the Jetcraft/Pelair freight world can fill in the blanks.
I think the B1900 and the KingAir 350 have the same requirements.
The governing factor is the TCDS - Type Certificate Data Sheet
S/P Ops has nothing to do with aircraft Max Takeoff Weight, or Catergory of Pilot Licence unless you were doing Charter.
Jet aircraft are typically certified as Part 25 aircraft by the FAA or EASA. A Part 25 aircraft requires TWO pilots. An exemption can be issued by a local authority to allow S/P Ops in a Part 25 aircraft. Restricted to Private Ops only
For example C500/C550/C560 Citation, Citation II, Citation V are Part 25 aircraft, two pilot Ops. (unless local authority approves S/P Ops and normally applies to that country airspace)
The S/P versions are C501/C551 they are certified under Part 23 by the manufacturer and can be flown Single Pilot. Being factory certified S/P and requiring no exemption means you can fly them S/P in Charter Ops.
CASA recognise Flight Safety S/P pilot training and you can undertake FAA 4050 checkride or Flight Safety inhouse checkride for the Part 25 aircraft; for S/P Private Ops
The S/P versions; C501/C551 require no CASA approvals as the AFM/TCDS allows S/P Ops
The C560 Ultra and Encore require FAA or Flight Safety or Simuflite checkride, a local permit issued by CASA and good to go for S/P Ops, Private only
The CJ series; CJ,CJ1,CJ2,CJ3,CJ4 are all S/P approved in the AFM and TCDS and providing pilot has S/P training. This allows unrestricted S/P Ops. Private/Charter etc.
Its nothing to do with aircraft Mass, its all about cockpit simplicity and being able to reach ALL the controls including undercarriage emergency extension with seat belt fastened. Also the pilot in the L/H seat must be able to see the R/H wingtip with seat belt fastened.
The Citation legacy series aircraft, the later CJ series and Embraer, Cirrus Vision, etc all have very easy to operate flight decks and Flight management systems. Hence the approvals.
One quick way to VOID the airframe approval is to MODIFY the cockpit layout. Any mods may require an regulatory authority to sign off. as this was not what the FAA approved during S/P certification
.Send me a PM if you require more. I have 2000+ in Jet S/P Ops can can share info with you.
Some 3rd world tin pot countries will not allow S/P Ops in locally registered Jet aircraft. Cayman Islands, Papua New Guinea are two that come to mind. Cayman require or used to require two pilots in B200 for any flight...
S/P Ops has nothing to do with aircraft Max Takeoff Weight, or Catergory of Pilot Licence unless you were doing Charter.
Jet aircraft are typically certified as Part 25 aircraft by the FAA or EASA. A Part 25 aircraft requires TWO pilots. An exemption can be issued by a local authority to allow S/P Ops in a Part 25 aircraft. Restricted to Private Ops only
For example C500/C550/C560 Citation, Citation II, Citation V are Part 25 aircraft, two pilot Ops. (unless local authority approves S/P Ops and normally applies to that country airspace)
The S/P versions are C501/C551 they are certified under Part 23 by the manufacturer and can be flown Single Pilot. Being factory certified S/P and requiring no exemption means you can fly them S/P in Charter Ops.
CASA recognise Flight Safety S/P pilot training and you can undertake FAA 4050 checkride or Flight Safety inhouse checkride for the Part 25 aircraft; for S/P Private Ops
The S/P versions; C501/C551 require no CASA approvals as the AFM/TCDS allows S/P Ops
The C560 Ultra and Encore require FAA or Flight Safety or Simuflite checkride, a local permit issued by CASA and good to go for S/P Ops, Private only
The CJ series; CJ,CJ1,CJ2,CJ3,CJ4 are all S/P approved in the AFM and TCDS and providing pilot has S/P training. This allows unrestricted S/P Ops. Private/Charter etc.
Its nothing to do with aircraft Mass, its all about cockpit simplicity and being able to reach ALL the controls including undercarriage emergency extension with seat belt fastened. Also the pilot in the L/H seat must be able to see the R/H wingtip with seat belt fastened.
The Citation legacy series aircraft, the later CJ series and Embraer, Cirrus Vision, etc all have very easy to operate flight decks and Flight management systems. Hence the approvals.
One quick way to VOID the airframe approval is to MODIFY the cockpit layout. Any mods may require an regulatory authority to sign off. as this was not what the FAA approved during S/P certification
.Send me a PM if you require more. I have 2000+ in Jet S/P Ops can can share info with you.
Some 3rd world tin pot countries will not allow S/P Ops in locally registered Jet aircraft. Cayman Islands, Papua New Guinea are two that come to mind. Cayman require or used to require two pilots in B200 for any flight...
Didn't the MU2 become a 2 pilot requirement in Australia following a couple of unexplained accidents. ? Something of a knee jerk reaction when proper training could have been the answer.
I was once involved in a publication that was named
“Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom”
It had a full chapter on how the aviation regulator in Australia would not allow single pilot operations in the FAA approved single pilot Citation.
Eventually commonsense prevailed and the rest is history!
“Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom”
It had a full chapter on how the aviation regulator in Australia would not allow single pilot operations in the FAA approved single pilot Citation.
Eventually commonsense prevailed and the rest is history!
The governing factor is the TCDS - Type Certificate Data Sheet
S/P Ops has nothing to do with aircraft Max Takeoff Weight, or Catergory of Pilot Licence unless you were doing Charter.
Jet aircraft are typically certified as Part 25 aircraft by the FAA or EASA. A Part 25 aircraft requires TWO pilots. An exemption can be issued by a local authority to allow S/P Ops in a Part 25 aircraft. Restricted to Private Ops only
For example C500/C550/C560 Citation, Citation II, Citation V are Part 25 aircraft, two pilot Ops. (unless local authority approves S/P Ops and normally applies to that country airspace)
The S/P versions are C501/C551 they are certified under Part 23 by the manufacturer and can be flown Single Pilot. Being factory certified S/P and requiring no exemption means you can fly them S/P in Charter Ops.
CASA recognise Flight Safety S/P pilot training and you can undertake FAA 4050 checkride or Flight Safety inhouse checkride for the Part 25 aircraft; for S/P Private Ops
The S/P versions; C501/C551 require no CASA approvals as the AFM/TCDS allows S/P Ops
The C560 Ultra and Encore require FAA or Flight Safety or Simuflite checkride, a local permit issued by CASA and good to go for S/P Ops, Private only
The CJ series; CJ,CJ1,CJ2,CJ3,CJ4 are all S/P approved in the AFM and TCDS and providing pilot has S/P training. This allows unrestricted S/P Ops. Private/Charter etc.
Its nothing to do with aircraft Mass, its all about cockpit simplicity and being able to reach ALL the controls including undercarriage emergency extension with seat belt fastened. Also the pilot in the L/H seat must be able to see the R/H wingtip with seat belt fastened.
The Citation legacy series aircraft, the later CJ series and Embraer, Cirrus Vision, etc all have very easy to operate flight decks and Flight management systems. Hence the approvals.
One quick way to VOID the airframe approval is to MODIFY the cockpit layout. Any mods may require an regulatory authority to sign off. as this was not what the FAA approved during S/P certification
.Send me a PM if you require more. I have 2000+ in Jet S/P Ops can can share info with you.
Some 3rd world tin pot countries will not allow S/P Ops in locally registered Jet aircraft. Cayman Islands, Papua New Guinea are two that come to mind. Cayman require or used to require two pilots in B200 for any flight...
S/P Ops has nothing to do with aircraft Max Takeoff Weight, or Catergory of Pilot Licence unless you were doing Charter.
Jet aircraft are typically certified as Part 25 aircraft by the FAA or EASA. A Part 25 aircraft requires TWO pilots. An exemption can be issued by a local authority to allow S/P Ops in a Part 25 aircraft. Restricted to Private Ops only
For example C500/C550/C560 Citation, Citation II, Citation V are Part 25 aircraft, two pilot Ops. (unless local authority approves S/P Ops and normally applies to that country airspace)
The S/P versions are C501/C551 they are certified under Part 23 by the manufacturer and can be flown Single Pilot. Being factory certified S/P and requiring no exemption means you can fly them S/P in Charter Ops.
CASA recognise Flight Safety S/P pilot training and you can undertake FAA 4050 checkride or Flight Safety inhouse checkride for the Part 25 aircraft; for S/P Private Ops
The S/P versions; C501/C551 require no CASA approvals as the AFM/TCDS allows S/P Ops
The C560 Ultra and Encore require FAA or Flight Safety or Simuflite checkride, a local permit issued by CASA and good to go for S/P Ops, Private only
The CJ series; CJ,CJ1,CJ2,CJ3,CJ4 are all S/P approved in the AFM and TCDS and providing pilot has S/P training. This allows unrestricted S/P Ops. Private/Charter etc.
Its nothing to do with aircraft Mass, its all about cockpit simplicity and being able to reach ALL the controls including undercarriage emergency extension with seat belt fastened. Also the pilot in the L/H seat must be able to see the R/H wingtip with seat belt fastened.
The Citation legacy series aircraft, the later CJ series and Embraer, Cirrus Vision, etc all have very easy to operate flight decks and Flight management systems. Hence the approvals.
One quick way to VOID the airframe approval is to MODIFY the cockpit layout. Any mods may require an regulatory authority to sign off. as this was not what the FAA approved during S/P certification
.Send me a PM if you require more. I have 2000+ in Jet S/P Ops can can share info with you.
Some 3rd world tin pot countries will not allow S/P Ops in locally registered Jet aircraft. Cayman Islands, Papua New Guinea are two that come to mind. Cayman require or used to require two pilots in B200 for any flight...
However, I don’t think “… the pilot in the L/H seat must be able to see the R/H wingtip with seat belt fastened” is still a requirement.
I certainly can’t see the RH wingtip in the PC-24, and I imagine it would be the same in the Phenom and one or two others.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Thanks for that Office Update. Our company has Phenom 300 (amongst others). Certified single pilot but we operate them 2 pilot. That was fine and beaut until some of our pilots needed to "unfreeze" their ATPLs for command. Couldn't do it on the Phenom. Fortunately, FSI came up with a quick solution of an LST on their previous type (eg Challenger 350) and that gave them their ATPL.
Why is that a surprise? That is the whole point of the difference between ATPL and CPL - being pilot-in-command of a multi-crew operation. There is nothing in the rules about 5700kg and ATPL.
Well there was a time when anyone in command of an aircraft over 5700 kgs engaged in Regular Public Transport was required to hold an ATPL. RPT below 5700kgs or REG203 operations, even single pilot, required an SCPL. I think at that time only Conellans operated RPT below 5700kgs. ATPL holders could hold a "First" class instrument rating where an SCPL or CPL holder could only have a "Class" one instrument rating. For an SCPL holder to get an ATPL they had to work for one of the few RPT operators.
Moderator
"50 years ago when the first Citation came out, it had to have 2 pilots by law because it was a jet...all 300 and something kts of it."
The only difference was the SP was certified 12,500 pounds max weight.
Taily;
You are correct in what you say (in the beginning or early days.) the 12,500 lb limit was the easy way to certification. Moving forward, there are many gross weight takeoff increase mods available, and these do not affect the S/P approval for the C550 Citation II
You are correct in what you say (in the beginning or early days.) the 12,500 lb limit was the easy way to certification. Moving forward, there are many gross weight takeoff increase mods available, and these do not affect the S/P approval for the C550 Citation II
I operated a C550 at a AFM 12500 MTOW for operations into unlicensed airstrips.
But we still had to operate it two crew as it did not have cockpit changes for single pilot ops.
That did not worry the boss as he required two crew anyway.
But we still had to operate it two crew as it did not have cockpit changes for single pilot ops.
That did not worry the boss as he required two crew anyway.
Number of crew required is 1, certification (manufacturer decision) and 2, regulatory, as per type of operation.
An operator can fill every other seat with a pilot, navigator, engineer, observer or flight attendant beyond that number within regulation and certification standards to their hearts content. If it's written into the company ops manual in Australia that you require more then you also have to comply with that.
An operator can fill every other seat with a pilot, navigator, engineer, observer or flight attendant beyond that number within regulation and certification standards to their hearts content. If it's written into the company ops manual in Australia that you require more then you also have to comply with that.
That 12,500 lbs MTOW was a very rubbery limit though eh
