ADHD/ASD and CASA medicals
One student I had was a savant (my sister is one so I know the traits well) He got his PPL in the minimum hours, did everything perfect first time and then went on to fly helicopters in the army.
Most of my top achieving students have been well along the so called "autism spectrum". Which is a gift, not a disability.
Yet there is some jobsworth in Avmed, chasing his KPIs looking for problems that don't exist, unable to provide any statistics at all to say the people on "the spectrum" are a danger to society and shouldn't be allowed to operate machinery. They would have grounded this guy, by far the greatest pilot of all time.
Most of my top achieving students have been well along the so called "autism spectrum". Which is a gift, not a disability.
Yet there is some jobsworth in Avmed, chasing his KPIs looking for problems that don't exist, unable to provide any statistics at all to say the people on "the spectrum" are a danger to society and shouldn't be allowed to operate machinery. They would have grounded this guy, by far the greatest pilot of all time.
My favourite part of all of this bull**** is that professional aviators will be deterred into finding help for a myriad of concerns because it may impact their employment. Someone medicated with ADHD flying a plane would not be the end of the world. That person may be halfway through their career but realise their life could be a touch better with some intervention. The process for a diagnosis outside of aviation is a long route and very pricey, it's odd a simple form can ruin your career.
The following users liked this post:
The guy could be a savant. Could be on the autism spectrum.
The following 3 users liked this post by tossbag:
It's not a disorder. It's the next stage of evolution. But that makes some shallow people uncomfortable, so the pressure is on to try and force and drug these people into being "normal". Not for their sake, but the sake of other people who don't know how to deal with someone who is far more intelligent than them.
The following 3 users liked this post by Clare Prop:
Let’s remind ourselves of the Avmed victim with ASD who complained to the ICC about Form 420. Along with the completed form, Avmed asked him to provide:
That was so Avmed people without specialist qualifications in the subject could engage in solemn deliberations and presume to make judgments about the ‘aeromedical consequences’ of the victim’s ASD.
I say “victim” because – setting aside the confusion and consequential delay and stress created by the botched Form, which confusion was evident to the ICC – the questions were aimed at ADHD and not the opposite end of the spectrum – ASD - but the form was required for either. Hence the substance of the victim’s complaint to the ICC.
That victim won’t be alone.
This went on for years. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s continuing, despite the disappearing of the Form 420 while “experts” do a “review”. We’re all just guinea pigs to them in their thought-leading pursuit of the safety of air navigation.
The people who do these kinds of things and don’t apologise for the consequences of their overreaching incompetence are a disgrace. So are the CASA executives watching it all happen without comment other than public support. The Board? Anyone know what it does?
Medicare consultation and prescription records for the past five years; academic and employment history; copies of any special reports (such as QEEG or neuropsychological testing); previous specialists reports).
I say “victim” because – setting aside the confusion and consequential delay and stress created by the botched Form, which confusion was evident to the ICC – the questions were aimed at ADHD and not the opposite end of the spectrum – ASD - but the form was required for either. Hence the substance of the victim’s complaint to the ICC.
That victim won’t be alone.
This went on for years. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s continuing, despite the disappearing of the Form 420 while “experts” do a “review”. We’re all just guinea pigs to them in their thought-leading pursuit of the safety of air navigation.
The people who do these kinds of things and don’t apologise for the consequences of their overreaching incompetence are a disgrace. So are the CASA executives watching it all happen without comment other than public support. The Board? Anyone know what it does?
The following 2 users liked this post by Clinton McKenzie:
I know a train driver who was diagnosed with ASD as an adult and spent 6 months off the road having to redo his medical with the Company CMO (who apart from the bare minimum, has zero psychology training it turns out). Apparently as part of the assessment she asked him to remember 5 words at the start of her assessment and he had to repeat them at the end. When it came time to, he got 1 out of 5, and she was stunned. "Don't you think that's a serious problem? I told you, you had to remember those 5 words!"
His answer was along the lines of "Nope, 5 meaningless words in an interview to determine if I can do the job I've been doing for the last 13 years mean nothing to me. But I can tell you down to the milimeter the track gauge in each state of Australia, can tell you how how many volts the main alternator can put out, I can tell you the compressive or tensile force limits of our wagons and can mentally calculate how much force in tonnes I'm putting into the front coupler based on traction horsepower. For anything I need to remember I either write it down, or put it in my phone." From what he told me, she wasn't particularly impressed with his answer, but nonetheless signed him off Fit for Duty - Unconditional. His psych obviously had no problems with him doing rail safety-critical work!
His answer was along the lines of "Nope, 5 meaningless words in an interview to determine if I can do the job I've been doing for the last 13 years mean nothing to me. But I can tell you down to the milimeter the track gauge in each state of Australia, can tell you how how many volts the main alternator can put out, I can tell you the compressive or tensile force limits of our wagons and can mentally calculate how much force in tonnes I'm putting into the front coupler based on traction horsepower. For anything I need to remember I either write it down, or put it in my phone." From what he told me, she wasn't particularly impressed with his answer, but nonetheless signed him off Fit for Duty - Unconditional. His psych obviously had no problems with him doing rail safety-critical work!
Anyways...not-so-promptly he gets the following response...
Originally Posted by The Cretins Against Sensible Aviation
Request for Further Information
Thank you for your recent application relating to your Civil Aviation Medical Certificate. To continue your medical assessment, we would be grateful for further information regarding your Asperger's Syndrome / autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Your specialist/DAME/GP will be able to provide this information and help you arrange any required tests.
CASA needs to ensure that your condition and/or its treatment do not pose a risk to aviation safety. There is a concern that premature or ill-considered actions may threaten the safe operation of aircraft. Restlessness and excessive movement can cause distraction, and impaired attention would affect multi-tasking and situational awareness.
** Please be advised that CASA will not be able to assess your fitness for any medical certificate until you have been stable off stimulant medication (if applicable) for at least six months, subject to satisfactory reporting.
In accordance with regulation 67.180(2)(d) of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 (CASR), I require you to authorise the release of the following information and/or documents in order to assess your fitness for a medical certificate.
As described in CASA’s Clinical Practice Guidelines, CASA requires:
1) a report from your treating Psychiatrist with respect to:
3) a copy of the past 3 Years of your Medicare Benefits Schedule (MBS) and Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) history.
FOR UP TO 3 YEARS: Your MBS records can be downloaded directly from your medicare online account via the MyGov website. Your PBS records may be requested from the Department of Human Services. (see https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au...ation-releases)
4) copies of academic records and employment history
5) National Criminal History from the Police. (Check online for how to request a copy of your "National Police Check" in your State or Territory)
6) copies of any special investigations performed such as QEEG or neuropsychological testing
7) Previous specialist reports if available
Thank you for your recent application relating to your Civil Aviation Medical Certificate. To continue your medical assessment, we would be grateful for further information regarding your Asperger's Syndrome / autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Your specialist/DAME/GP will be able to provide this information and help you arrange any required tests.
CASA needs to ensure that your condition and/or its treatment do not pose a risk to aviation safety. There is a concern that premature or ill-considered actions may threaten the safe operation of aircraft. Restlessness and excessive movement can cause distraction, and impaired attention would affect multi-tasking and situational awareness.
** Please be advised that CASA will not be able to assess your fitness for any medical certificate until you have been stable off stimulant medication (if applicable) for at least six months, subject to satisfactory reporting.
In accordance with regulation 67.180(2)(d) of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 (CASR), I require you to authorise the release of the following information and/or documents in order to assess your fitness for a medical certificate.
As described in CASA’s Clinical Practice Guidelines, CASA requires:
1) a report from your treating Psychiatrist with respect to:
- DSM V diagnosis – detailing inclusive and exclusive criteria, and any diagnosed comorbidities
- Current clinical status, including symptoms and current psychosocial and functional impact of condition
- onset of condition
- symptoms, including any of suicidal ideation, psychosis, mania or anxiety
- psychosocial and functional impact of condition
- details of any hospital assessment
- results of neuropsychological testing of attention and concentration
- treatment, response to treatment and side effects
- date of cessation of medication
- Ongoing management plan
- Prognosis
- Follow-up plan
3) a copy of the past 3 Years of your Medicare Benefits Schedule (MBS) and Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) history.
FOR UP TO 3 YEARS: Your MBS records can be downloaded directly from your medicare online account via the MyGov website. Your PBS records may be requested from the Department of Human Services. (see https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au...ation-releases)
4) copies of academic records and employment history
5) National Criminal History from the Police. (Check online for how to request a copy of your "National Police Check" in your State or Territory)
6) copies of any special investigations performed such as QEEG or neuropsychological testing
7) Previous specialist reports if available
He's OK'd me posting it here, but I've anonymised it a little bit just in case...Apparently he just sent this, a letter from his GP saying "Yes, he has ASD, Yes I signed him off for his last medical, so what's the problem?" a couple of pages of his log showing the BFR's and a letter from work saying "Yes he is in fact a train driver, and has been for X decades"... No psych reports, no police check, no MBS history.
Good morning,
I am in receipt of your letter in which Dr Whatsisname requires the provision of supporting documentation in terms of my diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Firstly, it appears Dr Whatsisname has confused ASD (Autism) with ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) as Autism alone is not typically treated with medication, except where required for comorbidities (anti-psychotics for example) which is not the case in this instance, and certainly not with stimulants as referred to in your letter. Furthermore, despite Dr Whatisname's claim, Autism is not referenced in CASA’s Clinical Practice Guidelines in any manner, however, ADHD is, which in turn suggests the provision of the information Dr Whatsisname has requested.
This is an important point as Dr Whatsisname requires a report from my treating psychiatrist – and I am not now, nor have I ever been – referred to, or attended a psychiatrist for any condition, whatsoever. As such, I am unable to comply with point 1 of his letter. In addition to being unable to provide a report from my psychiatrist, the psychologist who diagnosed the condition passed away several years ago and the relevant records are no longer available.
Furthermore, it appears Dr Whatsisname has overlooked the fact that I have already been issued a Civil Aviation Medical Certificate, a C2 Basic, issued by my GP, 12 months after my diagnosis of Autism, as it is not a disqualifying condition to holding an AustRoads Commercial Licence medical, please refer to the attached correspondence from the GP regarding this in addition to a copy of the certificate itself.
In addition to the above previously-issued CASA Medical Certificate, since January 2018, I have undertaken an RAAus BFR in February 2018, a RAAus endorsement flight test in February 2018, a GA BFR in February 2020 and another GA BFR in August 2022 (refer logbook extracts). One would reasonably question whether 3 different CFI’s would agree with my condition “posing a risk to aviation safety”.
As you will note from the attached employment records, I have been employed as a Train Driver continuously for nearly 20 years, an inherently safety-critical role where attention and the ability to remain focussed and undistracted are paramount.
I trust the attached information is sufficient to demonstrate my diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder does not pose a risk to aviation safety.
I am in receipt of your letter in which Dr Whatsisname requires the provision of supporting documentation in terms of my diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Firstly, it appears Dr Whatsisname has confused ASD (Autism) with ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) as Autism alone is not typically treated with medication, except where required for comorbidities (anti-psychotics for example) which is not the case in this instance, and certainly not with stimulants as referred to in your letter. Furthermore, despite Dr Whatisname's claim, Autism is not referenced in CASA’s Clinical Practice Guidelines in any manner, however, ADHD is, which in turn suggests the provision of the information Dr Whatsisname has requested.
This is an important point as Dr Whatsisname requires a report from my treating psychiatrist – and I am not now, nor have I ever been – referred to, or attended a psychiatrist for any condition, whatsoever. As such, I am unable to comply with point 1 of his letter. In addition to being unable to provide a report from my psychiatrist, the psychologist who diagnosed the condition passed away several years ago and the relevant records are no longer available.
Furthermore, it appears Dr Whatsisname has overlooked the fact that I have already been issued a Civil Aviation Medical Certificate, a C2 Basic, issued by my GP, 12 months after my diagnosis of Autism, as it is not a disqualifying condition to holding an AustRoads Commercial Licence medical, please refer to the attached correspondence from the GP regarding this in addition to a copy of the certificate itself.
In addition to the above previously-issued CASA Medical Certificate, since January 2018, I have undertaken an RAAus BFR in February 2018, a RAAus endorsement flight test in February 2018, a GA BFR in February 2020 and another GA BFR in August 2022 (refer logbook extracts). One would reasonably question whether 3 different CFI’s would agree with my condition “posing a risk to aviation safety”.
As you will note from the attached employment records, I have been employed as a Train Driver continuously for nearly 20 years, an inherently safety-critical role where attention and the ability to remain focussed and undistracted are paramount.
I trust the attached information is sufficient to demonstrate my diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder does not pose a risk to aviation safety.
Well at least they didn't send him off with a form to an unqualified flying instructor for a clinical diagnosis.
It seems, KR, that your train driver mate was the victim of the insouciant incompetence of CASA Avmed who decided to assess candidates with ASD in the same way as candidates with ADHD. The acronyms are similar, so it’s a mistake any insouciantly incompetent bureaucrat could make.
Meanwhile, we have mineworkers, nurses, nightfill cleaners and who-knows-how many other neurotypical people getting behind the wheel while knackered and driving into a tree, opposing traffic or blowing through a red light. But they can't (and never will) be able to test for it, despite everyone knowing fatigue is one of the top killers on roads.
According to the NSW Gov't (The same people who will tell you the F3 at Gosford, or the New England Highway at Maitland is "A country road" mind you, so take it with a grain of salt) fatigue accounts for ~20% of the NSW road toll, so 288*.2 = 58 fatalities last year alone. Due to something they acknowledge yet don't test or regulate.
At least NSW seems to be a bit more pragmatic when it comes to this sort of thing though if you look at the actual Qld TMR page dealing with this, it doesn't align with the ABC article, ie if you're on the Spectrum, but it doesn't affect your ability to drive, you don't need to tell 'em.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 61
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
L
Labels tagged on too easily...
I do have family members diagnosed with ADHD / autistic tendencies; they are youngsters - does anyone give thought that this type of behaviour just maybe part of natural development, which will turn into another fixation or passion a year or two on?
I have no doubt the conditions exist, but labelling seems more convenient than allowing natural behaviour to go on with all the disruption it may bring.
I realise the thread relates to trainee / current aircrew, yet I'm struggling to think of a young family I know who doesn't have a child "on the spectrum" or "borderline ADHD."
I do have family members diagnosed with ADHD / autistic tendencies; they are youngsters - does anyone give thought that this type of behaviour just maybe part of natural development, which will turn into another fixation or passion a year or two on?
I have no doubt the conditions exist, but labelling seems more convenient than allowing natural behaviour to go on with all the disruption it may bring.
I realise the thread relates to trainee / current aircrew, yet I'm struggling to think of a young family I know who doesn't have a child "on the spectrum" or "borderline ADHD."
I suspect the reductions in Govt funding to NDIS for autism will reduce the amount of labelling considerably.
Mankind evolved quite nicely with people "on the spectrum" long before there was a name for it. and it could be argued that we came out of the caves because of, not in spite of, people who have this way of processing information. It has certainly given us computers and the internet.
AFAIK there is no evidence based science that gives statistically significant results that a person who carries this label can't be trusted operating heavy machinery. I'm sure the rush of people getting themselves and their children labelled would stop in its tracks if it meant they would never be allowed behind the wheel of a car. So it is nothing but prejudice.
Mankind evolved quite nicely with people "on the spectrum" long before there was a name for it. and it could be argued that we came out of the caves because of, not in spite of, people who have this way of processing information. It has certainly given us computers and the internet.
AFAIK there is no evidence based science that gives statistically significant results that a person who carries this label can't be trusted operating heavy machinery. I'm sure the rush of people getting themselves and their children labelled would stop in its tracks if it meant they would never be allowed behind the wheel of a car. So it is nothing but prejudice.
The following 3 users liked this post by Clare Prop:
I hope this post isn't misinterpreted as an attack on folks that aren't 'neurotypical', but it's long been my observation that aviation has an above average participation rate of (undiagnosed?) people on the spectrum.
Think about many of the behaviours required to be successful and safe as a professional pilot. Repetition and routine are required every flight. A sensitivity to sensory inputs. A high level of interest of obsession in the theory and manuals. People on the spectrum can be incredibly successful in such an environment!
Given this, I wonder if ASD can actually benefit a pilot in their career?
Think about many of the behaviours required to be successful and safe as a professional pilot. Repetition and routine are required every flight. A sensitivity to sensory inputs. A high level of interest of obsession in the theory and manuals. People on the spectrum can be incredibly successful in such an environment!
Given this, I wonder if ASD can actually benefit a pilot in their career?
I've come across many undiagnosed that are 'on the spectrum'
It is best to remain "undiagnosed" otherwise all sorts of doors will slam shut and the sorts of prejudices such as the ones we see with CASA will became a lifelong problem. I see it in young students and say to their parents please think very, very carefully before getting the label stuck on your child and it ruining so many opportunities... Just let them be themselves, however uncomfortable that might be for others.
t is just the sort of thing that people scratching around for KPIs will latch onto, which is what I suspect happened at CASA with the Form 420 nonsense.
As I've said previously, CASA would have grounded Neil Armstrong as having a "disorder".
t is just the sort of thing that people scratching around for KPIs will latch onto, which is what I suspect happened at CASA with the Form 420 nonsense.
As I've said previously, CASA would have grounded Neil Armstrong as having a "disorder".
The following users liked this post:
I hope this post isn't misinterpreted as an attack on folks that aren't 'neurotypical', but it's long been my observation that aviation has an above average participation rate of (undiagnosed?) people on the spectrum.
Think about many of the behaviours required to be successful and safe as a professional pilot. Repetition and routine are required every flight. A sensitivity to sensory inputs. A high level of interest of obsession in the theory and manuals. People on the spectrum can be incredibly successful in such an environment!
Given this, I wonder if ASD can actually benefit a pilot in their career?
Think about many of the behaviours required to be successful and safe as a professional pilot. Repetition and routine are required every flight. A sensitivity to sensory inputs. A high level of interest of obsession in the theory and manuals. People on the spectrum can be incredibly successful in such an environment!
Given this, I wonder if ASD can actually benefit a pilot in their career?
Well worth watching some of Chris Packham's videos on Youtube to understand how the autistic mind perceives and processes things.
I know of one who showed all the hallmarks of ASD and a successful GP, has PHD, has papers published etc. Finally got a diagnosis when over 50.