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Flying for free to build hours

Old 1st Nov 2020, 11:20
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Cairns
Posts: 43
Directed very generally at those in the position of a newly minted CPL etc..,employment will return so do t give up hope. Take it onboard as an expected road bump in the cycle of Aviation.

Undertake a trade, another field and when Aviation predictably picks up get back in...and for the next SARS, COVID etc etc. you will have some extra skills to survive.

History shows that perseverance rather than selling your soul will see you make it.

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Old 1st Nov 2020, 13:51
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
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what are you supposed to do to get hours just to get in the game??
What everyone has done since day one in aviation - it's not a new question.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 14:32
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Flying for free.

Simple. Don't do it!

You are screwing yourself.

You are screwing your mates.

You are screwing the industry for the future.


DON'T DO IT!!!!!
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 18:13
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Despite all the bravado here about not flying for free unfortunately it has been around forever. Plenty of current airline pilots have flown for free or better still paid to fly in commercial operations.

The reality has always been how do you get experience when all you get is a door slammed in your face? This problem has always been around and I don't see any real viable solution. Your only option is to work for free or to work in another industry and fly privately until you have enough experience that someone will pay you.
Absolute twaddle! I qualified as 9/11 happened, no flying jobs. Not once did I consider offering to fly for free though. I hunted down a job in flight ops of a small airline, spent a year getting to know people and decision makers - when they needed some more pilots, I was front of the queue and paid.

Donít offer to fly for free, it does nobody any favours and in my mind, undermines any self respect for yourself
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 19:11
  #25 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Oct 2020
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Well I am just trying to get into the industry and start paying off my VET fee debt. I'm not sure what the expectation is (i.e fly for free?) because I haven't had a job as a pilot yet. Very disheartening given the amount of money invested in this...
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 21:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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From GA to airlines it is a growing problem and companies will use Covid to forever bastardise conditions.

Pre Covid it was bad enough with the likes of VietJet P2F. Have a look at this forum - https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east-45

All you can do is stand true and follow your beliefs, however there are going to be thousands that will climb over anything, get up the greasy pole and do anything. I cannot think of any airline where I know people that this isn't happening. Very sad.

Tough times however it will get better! Surely it cannot get any worse!

As for hour building if you have a large group like you do, get a bit of cost sharing happening, do a lap of Oz. There are plenty of non aviation jobs out there if your willing to work. I only heard recently Broome is a hotspot for any employment with accommodation thrown in, the added bonus with that is that you are where lots of flying happens.

Good luck and do not sell your soul.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 22:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Originally Posted by nigelsomers View Post
Well I am just trying to get into the industry and start paying off my VET fee debt.
Well, call me stupid, but Iím not sure how you are going to be able to pay your VET fee debt if you are flying for free????

And from the VET website:

Repayments are taken out of what you earn through the tax system.
You wonít need to make repayments until you are earning more than $51,957 a year. This is called the repayment threshold.

There is no interest charged on HELP debts

So, if I am understanding you, you want to get some experience, so you can get a paying job so you can start paying off your ďcripplingĒ VET debt which you donít need to pay off until you earn +$51k pa and it will be automatically deducted from your salary?

VET is the cheapest money you will ever get, forget about it.

What you are really wanting to know, is: How do I get some experience so I can kick off my career?
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 22:36
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Despite all the bravado here about not flying for free unfortunately it has been around forever. Plenty of current airline pilots have flown for free or better still paid to fly in commercial operations. ...
I wouldnít be surprised if Virgin 3.0 will attempt to get pilots to Ďvolunteerí to pay Virgin to fly for Virgin, as a demonstration of the pilotís commitment to making the carrier viable in the longer term. That commitment will be rewarded Ďlaterí...
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 22:50
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Originally Posted by JOSHUA View Post
Absolute twaddle! I qualified as 9/11 happened, no flying jobs. Not once did I consider offering to fly for free though. I hunted down a job in flight ops of a small airline, spent a year getting to know people and decision makers - when they needed some more pilots, I was front of the queue and paid.

Donít offer to fly for free, it does nobody any favours and in my mind, undermines any self respect for yourself
In Australia around that time the guy at the front of queue would have had 10000 hours not someone in the back office with a bare CPL and maybe 200. You would have been told to go off and get some experience.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 23:59
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Where does anyone start these days? You hardly see GA in the bush except for sightseeing tourist operations.

In the Ď70s there were lots of thriving VFR SE charter operations across the country. Admittedly, some were pretty grubby cost cutters with dodgy equipment but they did pay. The glorious old GA award paid less than a labourer.

Sigh...ahh the good old days...Not!
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 00:43
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Itís always been the same. In fact even when aviation and Ga was booming, you could always shake a tree up north and dozens of pilots would hit the deck.

We poured beers, worked for the council, drove taxis, strapped buses to our back and kept pestering the local operators until we got a start.

Iíve always said those who stuck with it always got to where they wanted to be in the end. The ones who didnít, didnít.

An interesting observation after years in the game is the expats. They made good money and progressed quickly. However any bump in the road and they lose their seat. Even the rock solid jobs now like air japan and the big 3 are done.

Meanwhile anyone in Ďthat groupí that wants to stay still has a seat. At this stage.

My advice, head up north when you can. Find a spot where you can financially survive, get a job, keep pestering the operators and hanging around until they are forced to give you a job. Work ops, or the phones if you can. Help out on the line. Wash planes, sweep hangars. Learn the engineering side by lending a hand on the tools.

Good luck
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 01:34
  #32 (permalink)  
Whispering "T" Jet
 
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Location: Melbourne.
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The fish are biting well today, must be the nice weather.

Nigel you are loaded Mate. $120K in debt and you can afford 6 months with no income ???? I say TROLL or not enough to do and you are taking it out on your keyboard !!! 320, sure that ain't YOU?
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 02:06
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
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Originally Posted by SIUYA View Post
Really? Have you actually had a look at what's involved?

Are you and your colleagues familiar with the Civil Aviation Act, in particular S28? And also the CASA the AOC process?



If the big question at the moment is where would your airline fly to, then it's probably putting the cart before the horse at this point to talk about sharing profits I think.

I guess all that's left to say is.....GOOD LUCK because you and your mates are really going to need lots of it!
no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.

There is great demand in for example, in school holidays, that existing airlines can't cater for.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 02:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
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no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.

There is great demand in for example, in school holidays, that existing airlines can't cater for.
It’s good to see that our resident travel agent is also an expert on how to run an airline. If it wasn’t for your FB page showing that in fact you are a real person, I’d think that your many identities are in fact a very elaborate troll.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 03:07
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Originally Posted by getaway View Post
no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.

There is great demand in for example, in school holidays, that existing airlines can't cater for.
So these pilots will be flying the aircraft of an existing airline under the AOC of an existing airline to cater for demand that isnít being catered for by the existing airlines? Takes a special kind of genius to come up with that plan.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 04:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
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getaway,

no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.
That's not what you were originally proposing.

Let me refresh your memory........you said:

have spoken to quite a few other pilots about starting an airline & obviously they would not be paid anything, just taking a share of profits.
So which one is it?

The way I'm seeing it is you want to start an airline with your mates, work for free, and fly aircraft of an existing airline. Good luck, but I really reckon you're going to have a very hard time getting CASA to...Think outside the box... to accept that proposal.

As LB says, it takes a special kind of genius to come up with that plan.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 05:04
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
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Originally Posted by brokenagain View Post
It’s good to see that our resident travel agent is also an expert on how to run an airline. If it wasn’t for your FB page showing that in fact you are a real person, I’d think that your many identities are in fact a very elaborate troll.
it's not running an airline. A virtual airline is much simpler. You just have to think outside the box.

Not sure why you can't grasp this very simple concept.

It's not rocket science.

Hard part is finding routes big boys don't want to do, as too thin or big boys scared.

This is where tour operators come in.

In EU, charters are huge, run by tour operators.



There are today 1000s of pilots, who will never ever fly aircraft again.

There are 1000s of aircraft parked. Many will be parked for years or forever.

An airline within an airline could work with the difference being the pilots are not paid a salary, they are paid a % of profits, they are "owners".

If a traditional airline makes no profit, they fold.

Think of ACMI without the C.

Imagine a charter type operation, with crew shareholders.

Worst case scenario, they make nothing, but keep their currency & get some hours up. Best case scenario, they make more than they would have working for Rex, Virgin Mark 2 etc.

Why do many airlines try to get you to book accom, car rental etc. through them ? Because sometimes, there's more money in that, than the airfare component, but you need to fly there to do the accom/car etc.

eg. right now, there are some incredibly cheap deals on accom almost everywhere, but public has to get there to take advantage of them.

Last edited by getaway; 2nd Nov 2020 at 05:15.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 07:06
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Albany, West Australia
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
The con is when the flying schools trick people into thinking that they will be employable with the minimum command hours, then max out the VET loans with a load of worthless dual training. The admin fees these people pay on the top of the loan could get them another 100 hours in command and much more employable, but then they would actually have to get out and earn the money to pay for it.

Instead of conning students the schools should help students bridge the gap between CPL and being employable, so that we don't end up with people like the OP suddenly wondering what happened when the reality of a massive loan and no chance of work hits them and then going out wanting to white-ant the rest of us.

Agreed. But think of the bigger picture here: aviation VET loans are only a small part of the now $70b loans bill that our gullible governments have built up over the last few years. Most of it will never be paid back because the recipients have done a runner overseas, can't get that prized top level job that they 'deserve', or they will cleverly remain on or below the repayment threshold for so long that the debt will eventually be written off by Treasury. There are thousands of tertiary qualified people who have achieved it on the VET system, but their degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on. They were always going to have trouble using said degree to get a job in their chosen industry because the market was already flooded. Not just the sausage factory flying schools told porky pies: most of our top tertiary institutions did too. It's tough out there, but as the saying goes...... when the going gets tough - the tough get going.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 07:13
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
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Originally Posted by getaway View Post
it's not running an airline. A virtual airline is much simpler. You just have to think outside the box.

Not sure why you can't grasp this very simple concept.

It's not rocket science.

Hard part is finding routes big boys don't want to do, as too thin or big boys scared.

This is where tour operators come in.

In EU, charters are huge, run by tour operators.



There are today 1000s of pilots, who will never ever fly aircraft again.

There are 1000s of aircraft parked. Many will be parked for years or forever.

An airline within an airline could work with the difference being the pilots are not paid a salary, they are paid a % of profits, they are "owners".

If a traditional airline makes no profit, they fold.

Think of ACMI without the C.

Imagine a charter type operation, with crew shareholders.

Worst case scenario, they make nothing, but keep their currency & get some hours up. Best case scenario, they make more than they would have working for Rex, Virgin Mark 2 etc.

Why do many airlines try to get you to book accom, car rental etc. through them ? Because sometimes, there's more money in that, than the airfare component, but you need to fly there to do the accom/car etc.

eg. right now, there are some incredibly cheap deals on accom almost everywhere, but public has to get there to take advantage of them.
Now I get it! Great idea.

[LB walks backwards, slowly, while smiling and nodding but not making eye contact.]
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 08:50
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In God's Country
Posts: 181
I own two companies in aviation that have been hard hit by COVID...

Even so, we have found a way to not put a single staff member off, in fact we recently needed to employ an extra one as a result of our teamís monster effort to keep us afloat.

That new pilot gets proper pay and conditions.

Our team continues to pull strongly together and for that I am truly grateful.

My point, for the avoidance of doubt, is that if you offer to work for free - you are cutting the throat of my team and destroying the chance for us to be there ďon the other sideĒ.

If I learn who you are, you will be blacklisted from opportunities with our companies, at least. I will make an effort to spread that sentiment to my industry peers.

Maybe thatís seen as trivial by the selfish or ignorant - but itís a message that needs to be received loud and clear...,
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