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How do you keep pushing?

Old 18th Sep 2020, 01:55
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Chicago
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Surely the government should step up soon and make the award a little more attractive, as at the moment it stinks!! I would love to be back in the cockpit, but the money is terrible!! i feel like that following this its only going to get far worse as airlines will look to the desperate pilots who will work for peanuts- leaving those of us who would like to earn what its worth sucking eggs!!

Im fortunate that I have a trade, it pays very well, but my passion is flying, im a wee worried what the future will hold!
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 07:15
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Age: 64
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
George Glass, I wish I could agree with you. The problem for you, as I learned around 1980, is that the bean counters want a dividend for the cost of all that new technology and that dividend is taken as cheaper pilots. In other words, your profession is being dumbed down and that will continue. The same is now happening to medical staff.

You have already seen the consequences for example the san francisco crash by a copilot who couldn’t manually land the aircraft. while the immediate response is a call for more stick and rudder skills, you and I know that the manufacturers long term response is more sophisticated automatics.

Look at it another way, the history of all technology is to de skill and automate. Airline piloting is no different. Get out now. You will just be a glorified bus driver shortly. Technology is going to depress your skills wages and bargaining position.

Do something that cannot be automated.
Well , Sunfish , I don’t know how much contact you have with the Medical Profession but I have many family members engaged in it and I can assure you that they regard automation as an enabler and capability expander. It will not replace human judgement. It will be the same in aviation.
I wish I could take you on a 4 day domestic pattern to give you an idea of what an Airline Pilot actually does. Physical manipulation is a very small part of it. Pilots will be around a lot longer than the software designers think.
Skill erosion is a going to be a huge problem as this pandemic drags on. I hope the space cadets in management are working out a realistic plan for a return to work. If they screw it up the travelling public will find out very quickly how important an experienced , well trained , and current, Pilot is.
I hope it doesn’t end in tears.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 08:42
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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[the medical profession].......regard automation as an enabler and capability expander. It will not replace human judgement. It will be the same in aviation.
I wish I could take you on a 4 day domestic pattern to give you an idea of what an Airline Pilot actually does. Physical manipulation is a very small part of it. Pilots will be around a lot longer than the software designers think.


George, that is a good summing up of what good automation should be and why pilots will not be "automated" out of the cockpit.

From accepting MEL items, to reading the weather and NOTAMS and deciding a fuel load, a thorough walk-around, taxiing out, and then conducting the flight and avoiding weather etc: Pilots do so much more than "drive" the plane. The "driving" part, as you say, is a small element.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 10:00
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
STEM, law, ongoing, programming. What a waste of time! All you are doing is setting yourself up to be another employee. (...)

Invest in learning a trade or become an intern and learn business skills like property development. Stay away from “professions” they are a waste of time as far as satisfaction is concerned. Learn to do something nobody else can do is a better proposition.
Yeah, because nobody else can do 'property development'. This is unique skill unlike STEM or programming.

IT manager here - I assure you programming IS development and there are many niches little people can do. And finding smart and neat solution gives you tremendous satisfaction on almost weekly basis for 10+ years. Regularly.

&

&
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 11:03
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Airline execs have been wanting to do for years what the virus has done in a few months. Qantas tried to reinvent as a low cost model when they started JetStar but whilst somewhat successful, was met with a lot of resistance.

Now Qantas and Virgin can lay off their pilots off and re-hire them at greatly reduced salaries under a new agreement with one hell of an excuse for being tight.

Long gone will be these Captain salaries on $250k-$450k brackets. Just like Tiger did!
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 11:08
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
Qantas tried to reinvent as a low cost model when they started JetStar but whilst somewhat successful, was met with a lot of resistance.
I thought the Jetstar model was quite successful and has been running for many years!
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 12:04
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post
I thought the Jetstar model was quite successful and has been running for many years!
To be truly successful, a Jetstar 787 will need to fly from Mel/Syd to LAX.

When that happens, watch the sparks fly and they won’t be from the engines! There will be EBA discussions and unions meetings in rooms across the country.

They have made it as far as Honolulu thus far. How many flights does QF do to Honolulu these days? Not many!
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 13:31
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Sholayo the IT manager. Wait till your bosses boss decides to contract you and your entire team to an Indian outsourcer, or when the Board decides your next project should be in “partnership” with Accenture, or somebody decides to submit you to “lean sigma” or when they decide to change the platform to SAP, or Oracle gets a foot in the door, or you get a software engineering zealot above you that wants to change your entire development methodology and tool set, or the girl you didn’t give a bonus to alleges you sexually harassed her or, or, or, or. There are so many ways your career can go down in flames that are beyond your control if you do not control your own destiny AND IT IS GETTING WORSE.

Property development? You wouldn’t even know what the skill set or business model is and there is no university course to teach you. I have a relative who got taught “ the knack”. I was a crew member when we brought his new acquisition- 72 feet, 2400hp, 400 litres an hour, at 34 knots from Sydney to Brisbane. He is a delightfully understanding and. mild mannered best mate. he makes his staff into millionaires and makes millions for his customers and some of it accrues to him as well. How does he do it? Not by following a handbook.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 18:35
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Hi George,

For me, nobility means amongst other things (profession, or otherwise) "having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals, righteous, virtuous, honourable, decent, upright , moral, ethical" etc.

Out of those list very few apply to where I work in the main. More prolific admittedly the higher position attained by said individuals seemingly.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 20:50
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
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Originally Posted by flightleader View Post
Watch this
WorstPlaceToBeAPilot

Hope it give you a lift.
flightleader,

Thanks for posting the video. I really enjoyed it...quite far from anything I did. That flying asks a lot of the young people.

When the young guy took his first flight in the Caravan, the instructor told him, "So far you're the worst pilot of the day." ? That couldn't have helped the guy very much.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 22:16
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 181
I’m in a similar leaking boat

Traded everything and everyone for what I thought would be around 5 years of a tough slog...it’s now been 7 with no end in sight.
flying atm...but that looks to stop very soon, and then my only option is to slide back down the aviation ladder.
I’ve loved my time in aviation, especially my initial few years up north, wouldn’t trade it for the world.
But how much can one person take, approaching mid 30’s and have literally no possessions or money to my name....the chance of meeting a serious partner and having a family are all but gone...

Not a sob story, but it’s the reality for myself and so many of my friends. One thing I’ve learnt while talking to the older boys at airlines, their ga days were 1000-2000 hours....in the same registered machines I flew...just 20 years earlier...perhaps it’s why they speak fondly of their days in darwin and Broome.

I feel your pain plot, and like you, I have no idea what to do. Throw it away...or go back up north to face the pineapples for another 5 years...only to once again return with nothing.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 22:46
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 62
I deeply regret my career choice.

I find the job repetitive, unhealthy, incredible boring, lonely, pointless and frustrating. Although my salary is great (Asian Long Haul) and probably safe from Covid, it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't help I don't like to live at my base either.

The funny thing is, I knew it all along. But I was never brave enough to admit it and to quit. Now I am used to the money, covered in mortgages and school fees and feel too old for a career change.

Just my personal opinion, not trying to offend anyone.


Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 18th Sep 2020 at 23:08.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 03:01
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Originally Posted by OutsideCAS View Post
Hi George,

For me, nobility means amongst other things (profession, or otherwise) "having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals, righteous, virtuous, honourable, decent, upright , moral, ethical" etc.

Out of those list very few apply to where I work in the main. More prolific admittedly the higher position attained by said individuals seemingly.
I must have been lucky. The operators I have worked for had many first rate people. Including in GA. Boeing has some of the most impressive people you will ever meet.
The selection criteria for the major airline I work for took the “character” aspect of candidates very seriously. But then I acknowledge I am probably a dinosaur ,remembering a lost world. Maybe it wont return . I hope it will. But some posts on this thread make me doubt it. Pretty sad.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 03:12
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
I deeply regret my career choice.

I find the job repetitive, unhealthy, incredible boring, lonely, pointless and frustrating. Although my salary is great (Asian Long Haul) and probably safe from Covid, it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't help I don't like to live at my base either.

The funny thing is, I knew it all along. But I was never brave enough to admit it and to quit. Now I am used to the money, covered in mortgages and school fees and feel too old for a career change.

Just my personal opinion, not trying to offend anyone.
That sounds like every working male I know that is over 40 with a family!

Once you get to that age, everything you do is for your kids.

Once they have left home, some of what you do is for yourself once again.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 03:56
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Shire
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You’ve pretty much described an airline career too. Albeit the rostering is a little tighter and when you say the F word you gracefully stay home.

Your hearts either in it or it isn’t. I enjoy the game of flying. Others enjoy the destination. Some enjoy long haul. Others short haul. Some love regionals or aero medical. Corporate. Ag. The list goes on.

So yes, GA can get you down. However there are many flavours of flying out there. You just need to find your niche.

Everyone I know who stuck with it got to where they wanted to be. The ones who didn’t, didn’t. Quite simply.

Find a good GA operator who has progression. Give them a call and ask what you need to do to get a job there. Keep touching base and updating them. GA is much nicer in a turboprop.

Stick with it. You’ll find your niche. If you love it. If you don’t, bow out. However, you’ll probably regret it. Either way
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 05:31
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Everyone I know who stuck with it got to where they wanted to be. The ones who didn’t, didn’t. Quite simply.
This statement is the simple truth of the matter.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 06:09
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
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Roj, did that there dog bite if you touched anything? Wondering if the oft told tale is true.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 14:26
  #78 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: East Coast
Posts: 42
Some great contributions here thanks everyone.

Another good series similar to that one I enjoyed watching was Dangerous Flights, documentary about ferry pilots in the US. Completely over-dramatized but still some good content.


After a lot of reflection this week I'm beginning to feel it's more of an issue with the company draining the life out of not just me but my colleagues as well. And I'd say this is a pretty common story across the board.

Before Covid we we were tired, overworked and underpaid but still living off the idea that we'd be onto better things in a short period of time. Now we're tired, overworked and underpaid with no end in sight. But it's all about perspective in the end. I have actually made some amazing memories and have done and seen a lot of things most people will never see in their lives, and made some lifelong friends along the way. And I don't regret it. But I do think I will regret it if I walk away. Me from four years ago would be giving current me an uppercut right now for even considering leaving. All I could think about then was being where I am now.

Allowing the bean counters to suck the joy out of the flying and make you see it as just a job is a part of the issue. So each time I fly I try to stop and smell the roses for a second, even if it is for a fleeting moment taking in the view and trying to remember why I was there in the first place.

One thing is guaranteed is that it will go from famine to feast again. So until it does I'll do my best to try and enjoy the ride.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 16:07
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s View Post
not realistic. NOT REALISTIC.
it is not realistic nor fair to expect me to change careers and pay the house along the way.

It is simply not realistic nor fair to 99% of us who’ve been putting too much into this
Your attitude is astonishing. Your professional and personal aspirations aren’t met, but it’s not realistic to make a change? Do you expect the industry to somehow change to make you satisfied?

It’s not fair to expect you to change careers? Here’s a news flash: life isn’t fair.

You alone are responsible for your happiness and your success. If things aren’t to your liking you need to make a change, because the world isn’t going to change to make you happy.

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Old 20th Sep 2020, 07:41
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 414
Well done plotplot.
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