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Flying School Owner makes AFR rich list

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Flying School Owner makes AFR rich list

Old 22nd Oct 2019, 11:15
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
uhmmmm, sour grapes or not (and I'm saying nothing about this one) you may want to watch this space, it'll be an interesting read ;-)
Do yCou havAe a propSosed timAeline for this?
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Old 22nd Oct 2019, 11:48
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
That over-sized circuit including over the coast line to the west and Parkmore to the east has been taught at ALL Moorabbin schools for at least the 20 years that I’ve been flying in there for !
What a lot of rubbish. True that some make bigger circuits than most. Soar's aeroplanes are usually well inside faster airplanes. Easy to check at webtrak.
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Old 22nd Oct 2019, 12:09
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
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Originally Posted by djpil View Post
What a lot of rubbish. True that some make bigger circuits than most. Soar's aeroplanes are usually well inside faster airplanes. Easy to check at webtrak.
That comment was a little tongue in cheek! Well suffice to say they can be a fair bit bigger than other more rural airfields.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 01:07
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Dubbo
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Great article in the Australian yesterday. Time for the scam that is Soar aviation to be unravelled. If only Four Corners would get on this story (Aerospace ring a bell anyone??)!
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 01:59
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 204
Okay, someone has to ask.... Being 2000 km away from them, what is the problem ?
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 06:28
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane, Qld
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Maybe not just a case of jealously or tall poppy syndrome after all?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...lyubVVoRrw2oeI
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 06:57
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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That news article requires a subscription!
Capt Fathom is online now  
Old 26th Oct 2019, 09:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane, Qld
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Woops, sorry Fathom, for some reason I'm able to access it anyway!

"Fifteen former students of Australia’s biggest flight training school are seeking to have huge loans refunded because they claim they did not receive the training they were promised.
Since May 2016, 939 students have enrolled in Box Hill Institute’s Commercial Pilot’s Licence diploma, offered in partnership with Soar Aviation Flight Training. Almost all of those (98 per cent) relied upon VET student loans as the sole source of funding for the course. Department of Education figures showed that last year, more than $11m was loaned to 402 students of Box Hill.
In the same year, only six people were recorded as graduating from the CPL course although Soar Aviation insists 61 students successfully obtained their pilot’s licence.
A report prepared by Box Hill Institute, seen by The Australian, showed staff were aware of concerns about the delivery of the CPL course due to the large intake of students. It also revealed more than 30 complaints from students were actively being investigated.
Central to the issue was the requirement for students to repeat flights at further cost, after they were deemed competent.
“Our students are made to go over the minimal and allocated hours, pass the census dates to trigger the next amount of money then told to pay thousands of dollars more to complete their course,” said the report.
A group of 15 students wrote to Victoria’s Minister for Education with their concerns, and received a response from Minister for Higher Education, Gayle Tierney.
Ms Tierney advised that she was aware of the complaints regarding the delivering of the diploma by Box Hill Institute and had asked her department to investigate. A department spokeswoman confirmed the investigation was ongoing.
The Special Investigations Unit of the Australian Skills Quality Authority was conducting its own inquiries.
Former student Lukesh Kumar said he and his fellow students felt they had been misled by Soar and Box Hill and were no closer to realising their dream of becoming pilots.
“I was advised that I would be training under the Civil Aviation Safety Authority syllabus, I would be trained on a Cessna 172 aircraft, and would also have work placement upon completion of my CPL,” said Nerita Somers in a letter co-signed by a dozen other students.
Instead, Ms Somers began her training in a Foxbat and was made to take out membership with Recreational Aviation Australia.
“The school has debited a total of $77,506 which includes the CPL component despite having not delivered the flight training component pertaining to this licence,” she said.
“I am still waiting to complete my flying for the Private Pilot’s Licence, and have had multiple training flights purposely repeated, despite no earlier intervention on rectifying the training outcome.”
Mr Kumar said they were not made aware of key differences between Soar Aviation and other flight training schools such as CAE Oxford Aviation Academy, Basair and Flight Training Adelaide. The Civil Aviation Safety Authority confirmed Soar Aviation had a Part 141 approval rather than a Part 142 which prepared students for airline operations.
Box Hill Institute chief executive Vivienne King said they had received complaints about the training at Soar and as a result “improvement strategies” had been introduced.
These included monthly management communication meetings with Soar senior management to discuss student concerns.
“BHI has appointed a dedicated full-time manager of curriculum and quality to assist with compliance against all required standards,” said Ms King.
“Delivering high quality training is our top priority and we take the success of our students extremely seriously.”
Soar Aviation CEO Neel Khokhani said they were in the business of graduating “quality pilots and endeavoured to meet the highest standards of flight training.
“Providing students additional flying time allows them the necessary hand eye skill required to graduate from the course,” Mr Khokhani said.
The students’ matter is now before the Victorian Civil Administrative Tribunal (VCAT) with an initial hearing set down for November 20."

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Old 26th Oct 2019, 09:33
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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So, all the money has actually come from us taxpayers then in the form of VET loans. which are going up to a whopping $150,000 in January.

I thought there was more scrutiny than in the days when it started and a certain number of people have to successfully graduate and find work in industry in order for the loans to continue. Can anyone here elaborate on that?
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 10:37
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I can’t help but feel like I want to blame some of the students after reading this. These RTO’s have made it possible for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get into flight training and they may not be suited for it. It’s no different to heading off to do a Marketing degree or similar. Late nights, working 2 jobs part time, uni exams etc, it’s all too much for many.

Once they investigate, they will probably find that the graduation rate isn’t as bad as it first seems.

Will be interesting to see what pans out.

Short of the students leaving the country, the loans have to be paid back with interest.


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Old 26th Oct 2019, 11:44
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NSW Australia
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I can’t help but feel like I want to blame some of the students after reading this.
I thought that too. The 4Corners Hatchet-job on Aerospace Aviation was a great example of the students not applying themselves. I was told stories of students hit by cars and in hospital with a broken leg - "You need to be here for your son" - "So when will I get a refund???"
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 11:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
I can’t help but feel like I want to blame some of the students after reading this. These RTO’s have made it possible for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get into flight training and they may not be suited for it.
How can you blame the students? They don’t know any better!
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 11:59
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 241
Is there a serious innuendo that certain flying schools are stripping students of VET fees while not genuinely able to train them.

That seems like a really big story for any investigative journalist worth their salt and possibly worthy of gaol time for perpetrators against our young.

A decent start point would be to look at training capability and assets for training output of the school versus the students on the books to see if there was any genuine capability or even intention to train them.

Look at reputable institutions - and their capabilities as a barometer. What are the decent Melbourne based training colleges? How many aircraft, instructors and daily and weekly training slots do they have per student.

Back of a drink coaster: - a school with 10 aircraft
20 training slots per day
200 flights per week
10 instructors
5 flights per week per student
Does 40 students per week seem reasonable?
It does to me......for a bloody busy flying school.
So it would be reasonable for them to hold themselves out to 200 students with VET fees as being able to train them?

Perhaps some smelly stuff in here for you Byron et al that might actually help some youngsters in trouble through leeches in the industry.....

Last edited by ramble on; 26th Oct 2019 at 12:11.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 12:06
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Here's a thought: SORE is the only GA organisation that Michael McCormack has been photographed in front of. So long as he is leader, SOAR will not be punished because he knows that to do so will hand his enemies a big stick to beat him with.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 12:16
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Shame on you for that suggestion, Horatio.

These matters are about objective safety risk, not politics.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 12:22
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Shame on you for that suggestion, Horatio.
You're right. I'll fine myself 100 penalty units.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 13:38
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post

How can you blame the students? They don’t know any better!
The problem is that the same thing can happen when you enroll in a science degree, arts degree, IT or any other degree for that matter...

I will never forget my first ever university lecture. It was 20-30% over subscribed. Students hanging from the roof and filling up the aisles. The lecturer said, “don’t worry, there will be more room soon as most of you will never graduate.”

Of the 400 in the room, there was only about 30 that graduated with me.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 18:30
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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“Providing students additional flying time allows them the necessary hand eye skill required to graduate from the course,” Mr Khokhani said.
So they’re on the 200hr syllabus yet the instructors can’t teach basic hand eye coordination with that time frame?
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 20:59
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post


The problem is that the same thing can happen when you enroll in a science degree, arts degree, IT or any other degree for that matter...

I will never forget my first ever university lecture. It was 20-30% over subscribed. Students hanging from the roof and filling up the aisles. The lecturer said, “don’t worry, there will be more room soon as most of you will never graduate.”

Of the 400 in the room, there was only about 30 that graduated with me.
‘My experience, 50 years ago, is exactly the same as Squawks.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 22:40
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
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Originally Posted by Left 270 View Post
So they’re on the 200hr syllabus yet the instructors can’t teach basic hand eye coordination with that time frame?
I'm speculating, but the 200 hour syllabus likely has no more time dedicated to ab-initio flying than the 150 hour syllabus. The differences will be in navigation and command hours.
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