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Here We Go Again - Divide and Rule.

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Here We Go Again - Divide and Rule.

Old 24th Sep 2019, 07:04
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Here We Go Again - Divide and Rule.

Yesterday I received my SAAA notam regarding the SAAA response to the proposal that RAA aircraft may increase allowable design maximum takeoff weights to 760 kg from 600 kg.

Sadly, the SAAA response is to reject the proposal. It seems because it will cost the SAAA aircraft and members, although the argument is dressed up in terms of safety.

The axis of the issue is that RAA pilots may self certify their medical fitness, thus removing the expensive, contentious and onerous task for PPL holders of getting new medical certificates at intervals that SAAA member pilots must put up with. This is a very attractive option for older pilots and many will no doubt change to RAA rules as a result if their aircraft fit the new weight limit. The new "basic class 2' is not an easy answer either but others can explain why, I thnk.

SAAA makes some comments about "standards' of RAA training and experience requirements that are in the negative but probably contain a grain of truth and of course link these to safety outcomes. I don't think anyone can fault the SAAA approach to safety, I certainly cannot. The RAA approach is perhaps a work in progress, but the aircraft are lighter, slower and smaller than SAAA big iron.

Its saddening to see this because the natural bureaucratic solution to this perceived unfairness is not to make self certification available to SAAA members up to say, the same 760 kg weight limit, but to remove the option of self certification from the RAA. So here we have the bait of self interest trailed and the SAAA bit hard.

That is not only sad, its bad for the total aviation community because it will reduce the number of pilots overall. The current proposal may cause a shift of pilots from SAAA to RAA. The removal of self certification will shift pilots for sure - from the RAA onto the golf course if they are faced once again with all the medical BS and expense that made them switch to RAA in the first place.
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 10:40
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What you need to consider is that glider pilots have been safely operating on self certified medicals for many years. There are some well connected people involved in the sport, highly unlikely RAA will lose this privilege. If RAA was smart, theyd be citing this precedent to gain the access to controlled airspace enjoyed by glider pilots. (Same story for private balloon ops)
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 04:17
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Sunfish

The RAA approach is perhaps a work in progress, but the aircraft are lighter, slower and smaller than SAAA big iron.
Don't forget that RAAus are seeking 1500kg, night, aerobatics and Control zone.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 05:10
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Yep, I guess they are. That’s why I suggested that their safety systems are a work in progress.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 05:47
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Originally Posted by Horatio Leafblower View Post
Sunfish



Don't forget that RAAus are seeking 1500kg, night, aerobatics and Control zone.
Not quite.

They are currently seeking 760kgs.
Once that is approved or denied, they will then start on CTA.

The remainder are pipe dreams at best for the foreseeable future.

Those that visited the RA-Aus forums at Parkes were all made aware of the strategic direction that management are taking on these.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 00:07
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I understand that the weight increase and its additional restrictions will be mandatory, i.e. if you currently have an RV4 in RAAus (MTOW reduced to 600 but certified to 680) then if the weight increase is approved then the RV4 will automatically get the increase but will then have to be maintained by a LAME (if the owner is not the original builder). In other words you do not have the option to keep it at 600kg and owner/operator maintained. I'm not sure what other restrictions will be applied but this could affect a lot of people.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 00:40
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Stall speed is a big one.

When filling out the CASA response, you must include that you want them to increase the stall speed to greater than 45 knots, otherwise there will be potentially very few aircraft that are actually able to come across.

The best example of this would be a J230 Jabiru stalls at 45 knots at 600kgs, so whilst it is capable of 760kgs MTOW, it wont be able to utilize it, because the stall speed will be closer to 49 knots dirty.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 02:41
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The whole original idea of RA was to make GA flying more affordable by keeping the machines light weight, low stall speed and basic, they seem to have lost sight of the concept. 600 kg's has worked well.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 03:31
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Stall speed is a big one.

When filling out the CASA response, you must include that you want them to increase the stall speed to greater than 45 knots,
Ahhhh so... it' not just an arbitrary weight number but there are real safety considerations . Good to know.
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 02:27
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Our friends in CASA will be selling tickets to the front row seats for those who would enjoy the spectacle of the organisers of GA destroying themselves. As well as SAAA lampooning the weight increase on “ safety grounds “ I notice that AOPA are not very supportive either. If this results in RAAus pilots losing the self- assessment medical I think RAAus will be sorry that it was initiated by the current Board. Classic example of shooting yourself in the foot.
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 03:37
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It's a shame that the various organizations can't work together but what did you expect? This latest rounds comes after RAAus argued back in 207 that a relaxation of the medial standards for GA pilots shouldn't happen as they would lose members....

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raaus...march-2017.pdf
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 08:25
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Wow .! 49 kts over 45 !...must be some hellava 'safety case' to deny that. Gonna kill a lot of people at that stall speed is it ?
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:44
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Folks,
Instead of "dog in the manger", what you should all be pushing for is "driver's license medical" for all PPL/Private flying, as per USA, and owner maintenance for all simple aircraft used for private operations --- have a look at Canada, as well as USA.

Just mucking around the edges of what we do now, a mostly incoherent mess, is NOT THE ANSWER.

As for RAOz and CTA, that's been going on since early 1990s, can't accuse anybody of rushing at CASA.

750 kg (not 760?) dates back to 1996, the standard lightening speed of Australian regulatory change ---."progress"???

Ain't it great to live in The Lucky Country.

Tootle pip!!

Last edited by LeadSled; 28th Sep 2019 at 10:17. Reason: minor edit
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:48
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You are free to leave anytime you want- toodle pip!
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 12:24
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
You are free to leave anytime you want- toodle pip!
LL,
Typical stupid comment, probably based on gloriously determined ignorance, not to mention a consistently "CASA can do no wrong" prejudice --- but a constructive input is clearly beyond you.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 17:06
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Probably just sick of the holier than thou attitude that oozes out of every.......single.......post, folks.

Tootle Pip!
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 22:34
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 23:01
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Originally Posted by wishiwasupthere View Post
Probably just sick of the holier than thou attitude that oozes out of every.......single.......post, folks.

Tootle Pip!
Thank christ somebody said it, the constant holier than thou lecture posts addressing his grateful audience (Folks,) really do start to get tiresome.

Tootle Pip!!
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 10:20
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Originally Posted by BigPapi View Post
Thank christ somebody said it, the constant holier than thou lecture posts addressing his grateful audience (Folks,) really do start to get tiresome.

Tootle Pip!!
BP at al,
Again, so typical of the AU aviation scene, play the man, not the ball.
Pity some of you haven't experienced GA outside Australia, to find out just how different the atmosphere can be, how much more pleasant.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 10:47
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
BP at al,
Again, so typical of the AU aviation scene, play the man, not the ball.
Pity some of you haven't experienced GA outside Australia, to find out just how different the atmosphere can be, how much more pleasant.
Tootle pip!!
I have no ball to play in this regard. I don't fly RAAus, and I don't intend to. I have no idea what the implications of an increase from in MTOW from 600 to 760 would be.

Your manner, however, on every single post you make, is condescending and rude to most concerned.

Tootle Pip!!
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