The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Bell ditching off Newcastle

Old 10th Sep 2019, 23:50
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,309
At low level he wouldn’t have necessarily had time to broadcast anything. My guess anyway is that no tapes will be forthcoming, given the craven behaviour of ATSB.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 01:09
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: nosar
Posts: 1,158
Hypothetically, lets assume that the aircraft was required to hold due ATC, please Dick enlighten me, how that could cause an aircraft to crash or how that would even relate to the aircraft's loss. You know as well as anyone that had an emergency been declared, there would have been ZERO requirement to hold.
Junior, while you and I may have the confidence to either ignore a controller or declare an emergency I can assure you that the vast majority of pilots do not. I have been instructing for 30 odd years and it still amazes me how intimidated the average pilot can be of ATC. It would be interesting indeed to know what was said and if this bloke was asked to hold while VFR, at or beyond last light in marginal weather.
Aussie Bob is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 01:28
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Gafa
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
If Willy ATC had required UVC to hold at Anna Bay why was he turning left? I was taught that right turns were standard for holding patterns unless directed otherwise. Common sense would dictate that if he was required to hold he would have been turning right, wouldn't it?
Most aircraft holding at Anna Bay would be instructed to hold over water at 500’, it would appear that most pilots travelling southbound on the route would interpret that as a left pattern in the hold.

The altitude of the aircraft may suggest that UVC was not operating as part of Willy ATCs coastal clearance (at least at the time of the incident) and instead was offered tracking direct with a higher altitude (possibly at pilot request) before the crew decided to ditch.
Maggie Island is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 01:34
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 2,708
Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
If Willy ATC had required UVC to hold at Anna Bay why was he turning left? I was taught that right turns were standard for holding patterns unless directed otherwise. Common sense would dictate that if he was required to hold he would have been turning right, wouldn't it?
Errrm, I don’t think you get put in a ‘holding pattern’. You are just told that you are cleared to a specified point, and what you do to ensure you don’t go past that point without further clearance is up to you.

The Willy Coastal Route procedures clearly require aircraft to remain “over water”. If you’re south bound and you’re instructed not to go past Anna Bay, you have no choice but to turn left to remain over water if you approach Anna Bay without receiving clearance to go further, unless you’re already a long distance off the coast.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 01:36
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 1,188
Reminds me of a similar out of Cairns, many moons ago.
Aircraft , low in the dark and dzl, asked to stay clear of the airport, where the lights were, for RPT. The turn away /orbit into the black hole finished that off. RIP those 2
Others may have more intimate details and knowledge of...so correct me if I;m wrong.
aroa is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 03:13
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post

Errrm, I don’t think you get put in a ‘holding pattern’. You are just told that you are cleared to a specified point, and what you do to ensure you don’t go past that point without further clearance is up to you.
I've never flown into Williamtown so I don't know what the procedure is. Dick's original comment was
​​​​​​
Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
It is is well known that the RAAF Willy ATCs are often forced to keep VFR aircraft holding at Anna Bay.
If you're required to hold at a position I'd expect that you would adopt a standard right turn pattern. If you're night VFR and you've got coastal lights ahead, to the right and behind you and nothing to the left, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to adopt a non-standard left turn away from all your visual references. At 100 knots your turn diameter is going to be only about 1.1 miles so unless you are hugging the coastline you should be able to adopt a standard right turn, maintain visual references and stay over water.

The flight path just doesn't strike me as syncing up with the Anna Bay hold hypothesis.
MickG0105 is online now  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 04:17
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Bendigo, Australia
Age: 71
Posts: 83
non-standard left turn away from all your visual references...

it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to adopt a non-standard left turn away from all your visual references.

...and when you've turned right - finished your outbound leg and now turn right (again) - what visual reference do you have? Haven't thought that one out, have you!
DeRated is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 04:59
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: A pothole on the information superhighway
Posts: 52
The aircraft was a helicopter .... why would it have flown a holding pattern at all, instead of just hovering at the clearance limit point?

Just sayin'
Piston_Broke is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 05:16
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,033
Helicopters don't hover at clearance limits. They fly holding patterns exactly as published, in exactly the same way that aeroplanes do.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 05:29
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 59
Posts: 2
Unhappy read post Number 1

Post 1 indicates the helicopter was approx. 3000ft (VFR lane coastal 500ft) as such all this discussion re aircraft held / made to orbit at low level being the cause of the accident is rather spurious..
Pat mphat is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 05:48
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cab of a Freight Train
Age: 36
Posts: 414
Still outside controlled airspace at 3000 at that point. Being denied clearance into the Willy CTR would necessitate holding at Anna Bay at 500 or 3,000 either way.
KRviator is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 05:49
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by DeRated View Post
it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to adopt a non-standard left turn away from all your visual references.

...and when you've turned right - finished your outbound leg and now turn right (again) - what visual reference do you have? Haven't thought that one out, have you!
Well, gee, sorry to disappoint you but I had thought of that.

At some point you would have to turn away from your visual references but on the basis that they are predominantly to the south (Newcastle and Williamtown) and to the west (Nelson Bay Road, Nelson Bay itself and Shoal Bay) you are almost certainly better served making a standard right turn because that places you (in the right hand seat) on the inside of the turn. That's not so important on the outbound leg as you run back up the coast, the lights are on the left and ahead of you but it's important when you turn inbound at the outbound end, because you're on the inside you'll reacquire Newcastle/Williamtown that much sooner.

In any event, even if there was no benefit one way or another, why would you make a non-standard left turn?

Last edited by MickG0105; 11th Sep 2019 at 07:37. Reason: Spelling
MickG0105 is online now  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 06:54
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Gafa
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
Still outside controlled airspace at 3000 at that point. Being denied clearance into the Willy CTR would necessitate holding at Anna Bay at 500 or 3,000 either way.
Willy airspace is SFC - 120 in the northern half (see the AIC link in juniors post)
Maggie Island is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 07:15
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 2,708
Not at Anna Bay it isn’t (unless R587 is active, in which case it’s a Romeo).

And some people seem to be labouring under the misconception that a requirement to remain outside some airspace results in a requirement to enter a ‘holding pattern’.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 07:34
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Gafa
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Not at Anna Bay it isn’t (unless R587 is active, in which case it’s a Romeo).

And some people seem to be labouring under the misconception that a requirement to remain outside some airspace results in a requirement to enter a ‘holding pattern’.
R578A-G form the controlled airspace portions around the CTR that are active from 0600-2200L (sometimes later) daily. Its all controlled airspace out to 25nm.
Maggie Island is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 07:50
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Vic
Posts: 7
What is the minimum NFR chopper height?
Cedrik is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 07:55
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: north or south
Age: 46
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by Cedrik View Post
What is the minimum NFR chopper height?
Same as the fixed wing , over water minimum 1500ft overland generally add 1360 to the highest point within 10nm
ersa is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 10:30
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 2,708
Originally Posted by Maggie Island View Post


R578A-G form the controlled airspace portions around the CTR that are active from 0600-2200L (sometimes later) daily. Its all controlled airspace out to 25nm.
​​​​​And were they all active at the time? Wasn’t it POETS day for Ronnie? ​​
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 11:52
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Gafa
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post

​​​​​And were they all active at the time? Wasn’t it POETS day for Ronnie? ​​
Yes to both!
Maggie Island is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2019, 11:57
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 2,708
So if UVC was at 3,000’ anywhere near Anna Bay while the Romeos were active, it follows that.....
Lead Balloon is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.