Bell ditching off Newcastle
About 10 years ago at the Gold Coast, I was made to hold over water for a decent amount of time for multiple Airbuses, in a piston single with no night rating and last light upon me. When I advised I had no night rating I was advised I needed to declare a PAN PAN if I needed to land and they would divert the jet traffic. As my pax was current on NVFR is was a no-brainer to hold.
Am I the only one thinking UVC may have violated the Willy CTR without clearance and that might go some ways to explaining his fairly rapid turn out to sea?
ADS-B Exchange has the last ADS-B plot at -32.804943, 152.043326, which appears to be the second-last one FR24 recorded, based on altitude, but it's closer to Williamtown. When you plug those coordinates, and those of the WLM TACAN into a few different Lat/Long distance calculators, you come up with 11nm, according to the US NOAA, or 19.66km / 10.6nm according to a couple of others. The CTR extends 12nm from the TACAN, so is it possible he feared a pineapple for busting their airspace?
ADS-B Exchange has the last ADS-B plot at -32.804943, 152.043326, which appears to be the second-last one FR24 recorded, based on altitude, but it's closer to Williamtown. When you plug those coordinates, and those of the WLM TACAN into a few different Lat/Long distance calculators, you come up with 11nm, according to the US NOAA, or 19.66km / 10.6nm according to a couple of others. The CTR extends 12nm from the TACAN, so is it possible he feared a pineapple for busting their airspace?
Maybe R578B wasn’t active at the time and the aircraft flew at 3,000’ to the boundary of the Willytown C and orbited in the Anna Bay Area while requesting a clearance.
Just speculation.
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Actually CAR 262AM states WHR ( warbirds and historical aircraft ) are limited to 6 persons on board, an application to carry more can be obtained. What would you call the UH1H ? I’d call it a warbird under CAO 104 and it was in the Limited category to which those regs refer to.
Exactly, the 6 limit is not a limit, and has a very interesting history, that derives from the other "lore" non-limit that a PPL can only carry six. Strange as it may seem to you, I actually am quite familiar with the "law" in this area, having had some quite detailed involvement, since the days of the H&EM Permit to fly "system".
Tootle pip!!
This is probably a good time to mention that R578A-G are only ever activated in conjunction with the Willy CTR and vice versa (ie no R578 = no CTR)
So those markings on the VTC of C from the surface to 5,000’ out to the 12nm arc and the E LL of 4,500 beyond that are meaningless? It’s all or nothing determined by the Romeo NOTAMS?
Or are you just speculating?
How many times have you transitted Willy airspace in an aircraft other than a military aircraft or commercial aircraft? In round numbers.
Or are you just speculating?
How many times have you transitted Willy airspace in an aircraft other than a military aircraft or commercial aircraft? In round numbers.
Pretty much, the E LL applies outside Willy hours, and everything else is NOTAM dependent (including CTR)
Righto. So if there are no active NOTAMS, the Willly C marked on the charts is not active? I can fly over the top of Malfunction Junction at 500’?
I might give that a go, next weekend.
I might give that a go, next weekend.
You sure can! Tip for young players the CTR appears in the YWLM series NOTAMS, R578 will appear as WMX.
Great! I’ll be taking some happy snaps of those Willytown flight lines from 500’ shortly. Thanks for the advice, Maggie!
All very strange!
The coastal lane operates at 500’. So not suitable for night VMC.
Why wouldn’t the clearance be overhead Willy?
Why would the aircraft be at Anna Bay?
How long before the facts come out?
The coastal lane operates at 500’. So not suitable for night VMC.
Why wouldn’t the clearance be overhead Willy?
Why would the aircraft be at Anna Bay?
How long before the facts come out?
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Can you fly over it at 500ft AGL at night?
The fixation on airspace is astounding to be honest, compared to what seems just as likely to be a VFR Day helicopter operating in IMC at night with an iPad for an AI. But sure, you do you. Airspace stops being a factor when you run into trouble and use the magic words, LB of all people you know that.
It’s not a “fixation”. There was speculation earlier that the aircraft had busted controlled airspace. There was also speculation about whether a Romeo was or was not active at the time in a place where the aircraft was at 3,000’. And whilst it might be that the aircraft was gobbled up by extreme weather and disorientation, it might be that confusion with procedures and airspace was a factor. (My pure speculation.) Certainly I’m now confused by what Maggie is saying. If some people consider that there’s no point in discussing the airspace and procedures in this case, I (genuinely respectfully) take a different view.
I’m looking at a VTC and ERSA entry that says Willytown is C to 5,000’ out to the 12nm arc “ATS HR 2000 - 1200 DLY (1 HR earlier HDS). May be extended to support CLA MIL (Check CTR NOTAM).”
The Class C to 5,000’ is NOT a ROMEO.
My question was about ROMEOS being active or inactive.
If I fly coastal up to Merewether now at 500’ coastal - that is BELOW the lower level of Romeos 578C and 578D - then track overhead Willytown at 500’, I’m not busting any Romeo. I’m busting Class C airspace. Or have I got that wrong?
If I’m not wrong, it follows that the ROMEOS being active or inactive does NOT determine whether Willy Class C is active or inactive.
It may well be that the CTR NOTAMS and the ROMEO NOTAMS are issued concurrently for concurrent times, but that does have to be the case and, more importantly, it is not always the case. It might be the recent experience of a few people, but that does not make it universally true.
I’m looking at a VTC and ERSA entry that says Willytown is C to 5,000’ out to the 12nm arc “ATS HR 2000 - 1200 DLY (1 HR earlier HDS). May be extended to support CLA MIL (Check CTR NOTAM).”
The Class C to 5,000’ is NOT a ROMEO.
My question was about ROMEOS being active or inactive.
If I fly coastal up to Merewether now at 500’ coastal - that is BELOW the lower level of Romeos 578C and 578D - then track overhead Willytown at 500’, I’m not busting any Romeo. I’m busting Class C airspace. Or have I got that wrong?
If I’m not wrong, it follows that the ROMEOS being active or inactive does NOT determine whether Willy Class C is active or inactive.
It may well be that the CTR NOTAMS and the ROMEO NOTAMS are issued concurrently for concurrent times, but that does have to be the case and, more importantly, it is not always the case. It might be the recent experience of a few people, but that does not make it universally true.
23 days, when the preliminary is published.
Last edited by MickG0105; 14th Sep 2019 at 01:07. Reason: Tidy up formatting
Willy approaches phone number is in ERSA, they’re probably bored on the weekend and will happily take any queries should you choose to verify
Last edited by Maggie Island; 13th Sep 2019 at 23:07.
Then it’s OK for me to deliver this to you in no uncertain terms: The current practice was not always the practice and will not be the practice forever. Someone might wake up one morning and decide that it’s not really necessary to activate R578? at the same time as the others or the Class C. A potentially mind-blowing concept, I know, but something that has happened before and could happen again. Enjoy your coffee and the view! I’ll be too busy flying to ring.
