VH-YTM final report
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Those of us who have had a short experience of the sort of longer term situation Sunfish described can only thank our lucky stars that we were fortunate enough to avoid the long term dramas of remote medical treatment. How much more dreadful must be the experience when the timeframe is far longer ?
Perhaps those who have had no exposure at all are not in a very strong position to advocate on the philosophical rights and wrongs of things ? Something about walking a mile in their moccasins, perhaps ?
As to PIC command decision calls, it is very easy for those of us with significant flying experience VFR/IFR to suggest what we might do in the light of that historical experience, given a particular situation. More importantly, we have the benefit of all those frights to which we subjected ourselves while acquiring the experience ...
Perhaps folks might cast their minds back to their time during that high-risk 100-500 hours period. Does the fact that Pilot A kills himself while Pilot B doesn't, mean that Pilot A is a lesser pilot ? Perhaps more that Pilot B might have been just a little bit luckier. I recall a double fatality in the Blue Mountains many years ago - one of the young chaps was the son of a childhood friend. The two of them, apparently, survived the prang but succumbed to injuries subsequently. Probably not in the same valley, with the same lowering cloud base but, quite some years earlier at a similar experience level, I very nearly came unstuck in a very similar manner - on that occasion, I was lucky. Come to think of it, on many occasions, I was lucky .. until I wised up a bit.
Perhaps the emphasis ought to be not on castigation but, rather, lift the bar on basic pilot training to give the new chums some supervised exposure so that they can have a few programmed frights with a better controlled risk ?
Perhaps those who have had no exposure at all are not in a very strong position to advocate on the philosophical rights and wrongs of things ? Something about walking a mile in their moccasins, perhaps ?
As to PIC command decision calls, it is very easy for those of us with significant flying experience VFR/IFR to suggest what we might do in the light of that historical experience, given a particular situation. More importantly, we have the benefit of all those frights to which we subjected ourselves while acquiring the experience ...
Perhaps folks might cast their minds back to their time during that high-risk 100-500 hours period. Does the fact that Pilot A kills himself while Pilot B doesn't, mean that Pilot A is a lesser pilot ? Perhaps more that Pilot B might have been just a little bit luckier. I recall a double fatality in the Blue Mountains many years ago - one of the young chaps was the son of a childhood friend. The two of them, apparently, survived the prang but succumbed to injuries subsequently. Probably not in the same valley, with the same lowering cloud base but, quite some years earlier at a similar experience level, I very nearly came unstuck in a very similar manner - on that occasion, I was lucky. Come to think of it, on many occasions, I was lucky .. until I wised up a bit.
Perhaps the emphasis ought to be not on castigation but, rather, lift the bar on basic pilot training to give the new chums some supervised exposure so that they can have a few programmed frights with a better controlled risk ?
Stop making excuses. Launching VFR into literally below IFR minima weather is not excusable or defendable in any way. He TOOK OFF into it.
The Angel Flight discussion is another topic within. But don't justify the pilots culpability.
The Angel Flight discussion is another topic within. But don't justify the pilots culpability.
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You’ve really got to laugh at the mentality of people in this country sometimes. The point I’m trying to make is that this operation simply should not exist. We pay massively high income tax rates in this country, so why do these poor people with health issues need to wait for some VFR pilot to come blasting through IMC conditions to take them to medical appointments. This is what we pay our taxes for. Rather than supporting this sort of cowboy operation (missions and heros at the ATSB pointed out) we should be attacking our local members for not providing appropriate services to our sick population.
Yet of course, in true Australian tall poppy syndrome, people attack me and my RN wife who give away huge amounts of money in tax to support the population. Of course, as we work our arses off to pay taxes, we are the problem.
Yet of course, in true Australian tall poppy syndrome, people attack me and my RN wife who give away huge amounts of money in tax to support the population. Of course, as we work our arses off to pay taxes, we are the problem.
You’ve really got to laugh at the mentality of people in this country sometimes. The point I’m trying to make is that this operation simply should not exist. We pay massively high income tax rates in this country, so why do these poor people with health issues need to wait for some VFR pilot to come blasting through IMC conditions to take them to medical appointments. This is what we pay our taxes for. Rather than supporting this sort of cowboy operation (missions and heros at the ATSB pointed out) we should be attacking our local members for not providing appropriate services to our sick population.
Yet of course, in true Australian tall poppy syndrome, people attack me and my RN wife who give away huge amounts of money in tax to support the population. Of course, as we work our arses off to pay taxes, we are the problem.
Yet of course, in true Australian tall poppy syndrome, people attack me and my RN wife who give away huge amounts of money in tax to support the population. Of course, as we work our arses off to pay taxes, we are the problem.
VHFRT, you can join the French aristocracy along with ATSB; ‘let them eat cake” now piss off and have another latte. You don’t live in the real Australia.
Agreed. What do you want Angel Flight to do? Get them to sign a statement that they won’t be idiots?
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Presumably you also have contempt for amateur firefighters like me and the rest of the CFA? You are an idiot for thinking that your taxes can possibly compensate for the amount of voluntary labor that keeps this country running.
VHFRT, you can join the French aristocracy along with ATSB; ‘let them eat cake” now piss off and have another latte. You don’t live in the real Australia.
I will happily say that I do not support “charities” circumventing regulations to put peoples lives at risk. Innocent people have been killed because a “charity” sent a VFR pilot to operate into fog so severe that the RPT Service held on the ground.
VHFRT......An increase in Government funded (meaning “professionally” administered and delivered by public servants) Shirley you must be joking??
VHFRT, if you care to read the press, you will discover, as the rest of Australia already knows, that the Government has made a complete mess of NDIS - The National Disability Insurance Scheme. Add to that the NBN, which has failed spectacularly to provide adequate broadband services to regional Australia. Despite being well meaning, you are obviously totally out of touch.
How could you possibly think that a Government instrumentality could do a better job of providing targeted services to Australians in need than a lean, focussed, voluntary organisation? For example, the Victorian CFA has about 35,000 members, not including family backups, there is no way in hell that government can replicate that service at anything approaching reasonable cost, then there is RFDS and a host of other voluntary organisations. What is wrong with using Angel Flight? Hell, it’s our country, not the governments! If we want to do things ourselves then we will.
Are you a member of the Canberra Louis XIV aristocracy? They are the only group who think more government is the solution to everything.
VHFRT, if you care to read the press, you will discover, as the rest of Australia already knows, that the Government has made a complete mess of NDIS - The National Disability Insurance Scheme. Add to that the NBN, which has failed spectacularly to provide adequate broadband services to regional Australia. Despite being well meaning, you are obviously totally out of touch.
How could you possibly think that a Government instrumentality could do a better job of providing targeted services to Australians in need than a lean, focussed, voluntary organisation? For example, the Victorian CFA has about 35,000 members, not including family backups, there is no way in hell that government can replicate that service at anything approaching reasonable cost, then there is RFDS and a host of other voluntary organisations. What is wrong with using Angel Flight? Hell, it’s our country, not the governments! If we want to do things ourselves then we will.
Are you a member of the Canberra Louis XIV aristocracy? They are the only group who think more government is the solution to everything.
Innocent people have been killed because a “charity” sent a VFR pilot to operate into fog so severe that the RPT Service held on the ground.
Don’t feed the troll! There’s always one. He’s wearing rose coloured glasses from the lofty heights of the right seat of a 737 and can’t see the 172’s below that keep GA and the airlines running.
I very much doubt that he is a pilot - no understanding. As you say... simply a troll.
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I think most here acknowledge that the pilot stuffed up, but I have genuine questions as I only know the bare minimum about Angel Flight.
1. How many flights a day or week would the operate?
2. Is there anyone at Angel Flight who monitors these flights for weather etc. and communicates this with the pilot the day before or day of the flight? And will reccomend or advise that the flight should / will not take place?
1. How many flights a day or week would the operate?
2. Is there anyone at Angel Flight who monitors these flights for weather etc. and communicates this with the pilot the day before or day of the flight? And will reccomend or advise that the flight should / will not take place?
If the doomsday merchants like Sunfish are to be believed the days of the 172 keeping GA and the airlines running (big leap of logic there), are severely limited. Its a very Australian trait to howl and tear down someone just because they don't follow the herd in their ideas. The people occupying the lofty heights of the RHS of a 737 have all been through the refining process of having to make decisions whether to operate or not in marginal conditions The questions being asked by rammel are very good questions. Who does keep an eye on these pilots? Just because AF doesn't have AOC, don't employ pilots or operate aircraft doesn't mean they don't have any responsibility to the people that are being transported. Do the people availing themselves of the service really understand that the pilot is the equivalent of a kindly stranger taking them in their own transport to the hospital? Maybe AF needs to be the provider of the education program to ensure that the weather decision making process, that has been flawed in 2 fatal accidents being operated under their banner, is better understood by pilots with varying experience levels.
Its a very Australian trait to howl and tear down someone just because they don't follow the herd in their ideas.
Then argue that point but when this is directed at them
and this
then my statement
is valid. I don't agree with FRT's assessment of AF but the point he is making is that the Government should be funding better regional health services so that people in regional areas should only have to drive into town to get 1st class medical and mental health treatment
"VHFRT, you can join the French aristocracy along with ATSB; ‘let them eat cake” now piss off and have another latte. You don’t live in the real Australia.
Are you a member of the Canberra Louis XIV aristocracy? They are the only group who think more government is the solution to everything.
Its a very Australian trait to howl and tear down someone just because they don't follow the herd in their ideas.
Last edited by Lookleft; 26th Aug 2019 at 02:30.
[W]ho monitors these flights for weather etc. and communicates this with the pilot the day before or day of the flight? And will reccomend or advise that the flight should / will not take place?
You do not understand what Angel Flight is and does.
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As I stated, I only know the bare minimum about AF. I'm assuming that there is some central point that the flights are arranged through and if this is the case, what monitoring is done of these flights?
I know that they are private flights, but they are being arranged by a third party. All I'm asking is, does AF ask if pilots are familiar with the area they are operating from/to and discuss the flight ahead?
While I know that pilots can cancel the flight, I'm also aware of the perceived pressure on the pilot to help out a family with a sick child.
I know that they are private flights, but they are being arranged by a third party. All I'm asking is, does AF ask if pilots are familiar with the area they are operating from/to and discuss the flight ahead?
While I know that pilots can cancel the flight, I'm also aware of the perceived pressure on the pilot to help out a family with a sick child.
To say that AF is just like any other private category flight is like saying Uber is just like getting a lift from a stranger. The fact that it is a charity does not absolve it from a responsibility to the "patients" for want of a better word. If there is no direct oversight then have mentor pilots to the low experience PPLs. who they can call on to help come to a reasoned decision to fly or not. The statement that the PIC can simply say no is as pointless as simply stating don't fly from VMC into IMC. It ignores all sorts of self-imposed pressures that a single pilot low time VFR pilot might place upon themselves. Rammel is asking the questions that the patients and there families would probably ask if they knew their pilot did not have much flying experience.
lookleft makes a good point. A mentoring program might be a good idea. My point about VHFRT is that he thinks the government can run a better program than Angel Flight - experience suggests not. As for the French aristocracy reference, it alludes to the fact that ATSB is totally out of touch with the ordinary day to day basics of dealing with severe illness.
As for your reference to uber, they were greeted like a breath of fresh air in melbourne. no more scummy barely roadworthy dirty taxis, no more illiterate unkempt idiotic taxi drivers who couldn’t drive at all. I’ve walked away from 2 taxi crashes caused by taxi drivers lack of knowledge of the laws of physics. Uber is way better.
As for the two AF fatalities, if they were statistically significant ATSB would have howled it from the rooftops. They couldn’t and instead invented a so called analysis that “proved” what their masters wanted to hear.
Im starting to get the distinct impression that GA and private pilots are under attack. From greedy councils, from the RAAF and their buddies in RPT who don’t want to share airspace with anyone and of course the regulator. You form a nice little club.
As for your reference to uber, they were greeted like a breath of fresh air in melbourne. no more scummy barely roadworthy dirty taxis, no more illiterate unkempt idiotic taxi drivers who couldn’t drive at all. I’ve walked away from 2 taxi crashes caused by taxi drivers lack of knowledge of the laws of physics. Uber is way better.
As for the two AF fatalities, if they were statistically significant ATSB would have howled it from the rooftops. They couldn’t and instead invented a so called analysis that “proved” what their masters wanted to hear.
Im starting to get the distinct impression that GA and private pilots are under attack. From greedy councils, from the RAAF and their buddies in RPT who don’t want to share airspace with anyone and of course the regulator. You form a nice little club.
Last edited by Sunfish; 26th Aug 2019 at 04:49.