The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Aircraft down at Braidwood, NSW

Old 6th Aug 2019, 06:11
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Aus
Posts: 76
Unhappy Aircraft down at Braidwood, NSW

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...=statenews_nsw

...not good.
MagnumPI is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 06:39
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 56
ATSB already have a report
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2019-040/
0ttoL is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 07:04
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,232
I used to own a Liberty. They are very simple, benign and forgiving. The newspaper witness reports say that it circled overhead and nosedived and that the pilot and a passenger flew down the night before, presumably to pick up the aircraft. Only some of them have glass cockpit which was an add-on, so it might be hard to find out exactly what happened.
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 10:02
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 64
Does the Liberty type have a record of nasty stall/spin characteristics, or am I misremembering?
BigPapi is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 10:29
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 713
kaz3g is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 10:44
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,232
Originally Posted by kaz3g View Post
That report is more open ended than an empty toilet roll.

The Liberty XL2 is an FAR Part 23 certified aircraft. Youíd have to do something pretty silly to come unstuck. Itís a very stable IFR training platform.


Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 12:40
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,522
That report is more open ended than an empty toilet roll.
....and thatís being generous.

What a pointless vacuous waste of space.

The only safety message is that they communicated effectively during the incident??.What? What pray tell me is the point of that nugget of information useful for? Whereís the description of the system, the operatorks thoughts on how it was trimmed incorrectly? A pilot on same type will learn nothing, nada, zip, el zilcho from that report. Why bother ATSB, why bother.

[/rant]

Back on topic, RIP.
compressor stall is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 14:59
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,866
Regardless of the cause, if confronted with an ever increasing uncommanded extreme nose high attitude, an immediate roll up to 60 degrees angle of bank to the nearest horizon to get the nose to drop, buys you time to sort out the problem. This applies to most types of aircraft from jets to lighties. This manoeuvre should be taught at the ab-initio phase of training and can be a life saver.
Centaurus is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 22:36
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
Regardless of the cause, if confronted with an ever increasing uncommanded extreme nose high attitude, an immediate roll up to 60 degrees angle of bank to the nearest horizon to get the nose to drop, buys you time to sort out the problem. This applies to most types of aircraft from jets to lighties. This manoeuvre should be taught at the ab-initio phase of training and can be a life saver.
That's very true 'Centy'', have always been taught that maneuverer in a jet at Sim time, few lighty drivers would have the peace of mind to roll an A/C into a steep bank to give them thinking time.
I hope they can get to the bottom of this tragic event, there has to be some purpose to the guys loss of life so maybe others can learn. RIP
machtuk is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 23:38
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oz
Posts: 516
Did those criticising the report note this to the right of the investigation number
Status: Active
Phase: Evidence collection
topdrop is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2019, 23:42
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,522
Originally Posted by topdrop View Post
Did those criticising the report note this to the right of the investigation number
Status: Active
Phase: Evidence collection
yes. I was referring to the 2015 report linked above
Aviation Occurrence Investigation AO-2015-125
Final Ė 28 January 2016
compressor stall is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2019, 07:12
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,402
Sounds like the Liberty has a pitch trim problem, or else the ATSB report is BS and some other stupidity occurred.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2019, 09:16
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,232
Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Sounds like the Liberty has a pitch trim problem, or else the ATSB report is BS and some other stupidity occurred.
The report doesnít say that it has an issue, nor did the engineer that inspected it.
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2019, 12:29
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,402
Does that mean then that some other stupidity occurred?
Sunfish is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2019, 01:57
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Camden Australia
Posts: 1
Devil Aircraft down at Braidwood NSW

Yes that previous Liberty crash at Camden was my aircraft and it was put down into a paddock from off base leg at Camden. It was definitely an inadvertent lean on the electric trim. I checked the trim position straight after and it was on full nose up trim.(there was nothing wrong with the aircraft).
Reference the current accident ... we lost a bank run Aerostar yearís ago stalled tightening the turn onto final. On giving Aerostar Endorsements I get a clearance up to 8000 ft over Richmond and tell the student at 148 kts to roll into a steep turn and pull back to the stall and it will suddenly (within a second) flick upside down and go verticall and it usually then takes him several thousand feet to pull out. they will then usually say I didnít know an aeroplane would do that no one has ever shown that to me before.
Very few instructors I speak to have ever experienced stall off a steep turn from off level flight, much less taught it.
Whenever you hear of a sudden wing drop followed by a vertical dive into the ground from a low level turn you can be certain what caused it.

Aerodiamond is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2019, 12:01
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Aerodiamond View Post
On giving Aerostar Endorsements I get a clearance up to 8000 ft over Richmond and tell the student at 148 kts to roll into a steep turn and pull back to the stall and it will suddenly (within a second) flick upside down and go verticall and it usually then takes him several thousand feet to pull out. they will then usually say I didnít know an aeroplane would do that no one has ever shown that to me before.
Wow!.........
Cloudee is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2019, 15:40
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,866
tell the student at 148 kts to roll into a steep turn and pull back to the stall and it will suddenly (within a second) flick upside down and go vertical and it usually then takes him several thousand feet to pull out
As Sir Humphrey of Yes Minister would say with a suitably raised eyebrow "A courageous decision, Minister"
Centaurus is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2019, 21:11
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 64
I think that's what they call a "pro-gamer move"
BigPapi is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2019, 21:14
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 64
Stalling the aircraft and observing the behaviour of the incipient spin from level, climbing and descending turns (including from approach config) and steep turns is commonly taught in flight schools....isn't it?
BigPapi is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2019, 21:24
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,402
Not any more.
Sunfish is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.