Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp
Really, because cadets have been employed in Australia since the early 60s. At a guess I’d say graduates of accelerated cadet/traineeship program would compromise 30-35% of all active Australian airline pilots and a fairly decent chunk of commands on heavies as well. Unless they’ve managed to fool all
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
But even if it wasn’t then two people who graduated from a CPL course at the same time, one from an academy and one from a ‘normal’ school, would both still reach airline captaincy (and this would just be for QLink as the first available upgrade) at the same time, except the path for the academy grad is more secure.
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
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Why do you think working in GA is not secure?
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
what a life
Why do you think working in GA is not secure?
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years than QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years than QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
Of course if someone desires a career in GA then obviously this academy is not for them.
It is clear where dre's vested interests lie. Of course there is a place for these academies BUT I think it is wrong that the taxpayers rather than the airlines are being forced to make the investment in their training.
I get to see the ones that have done the course and similar ones and have had nothing at the end of it; coming to me with a useless resume, a massive, massive debt and a lot of regrets. According to them they are the vast majority and if they had their time again would never have done it that way.
Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.
I get to see the ones that have done the course and similar ones and have had nothing at the end of it; coming to me with a useless resume, a massive, massive debt and a lot of regrets. According to them they are the vast majority and if they had their time again would never have done it that way.
Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.
So the solution that has evolved is a loans based system, HECS and FEE HELP. This allows a young person to undertake study without having $150k in their pocket to begin with. It will take a young person decades of full time work to save up the cash required to pay for training up front. Either that or have wealthy parents, and I think we can agree that being a professional pilot shouldn't be only the domain of the rich.
The only vested interest I have would be to direct a young person interested in an airline career onto the best path to achieve that.
I get to see the ones that have done the course and similar ones and have had nothing at the end of it; coming to me with a useless resume, a massive, massive debt and a lot of regrets. According to them they are the vast majority and if they had their time again would never have done it that way.
Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.
Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.
And even if what you are saying is true like I linked to above the course costs for an Academy grad is similar to a student choosing to take CPL and IR training at a regular school, and the same qualifications gained at the end of it.
I'm very aware of how the HELP system works. Until the person pays it ALL back, which may never happen, it IS taxpayer funded. That money doesn't grow on a tree. It has gone to the training provider, it is not building infrastructure, hospitals, etc.
I am concerned with the ones who DON'T make it because that training they have had is of no use to GA. I talk to a lot of employers. They all need people with command time. People who have gone out there, had some adventures, learned their boundaries and learned from experience rather than follow the bouncing ball of an integrated course.
Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts
The course is not comparable to "regular" schools, we can do a non-integrated (self-study) job ready CPL with 200 hours (around 125 command) for about $80,000. Straight into GA. Then they can get on the ladder and chose from a range of jobs and go on to airlines if they choose to. Many see how toxic it is and choose not to.
It's better than the other way round, being on the scrapheap before you have even begun, or having to spend a lot of money to get some useful experience, like all the unlucky ones who don't make it because their "airline" skills weren't good enough and are not transferable to any other area of aviation.
I am concerned with the ones who DON'T make it because that training they have had is of no use to GA. I talk to a lot of employers. They all need people with command time. People who have gone out there, had some adventures, learned their boundaries and learned from experience rather than follow the bouncing ball of an integrated course.
Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts
The course is not comparable to "regular" schools, we can do a non-integrated (self-study) job ready CPL with 200 hours (around 125 command) for about $80,000. Straight into GA. Then they can get on the ladder and chose from a range of jobs and go on to airlines if they choose to. Many see how toxic it is and choose not to.
It's better than the other way round, being on the scrapheap before you have even begun, or having to spend a lot of money to get some useful experience, like all the unlucky ones who don't make it because their "airline" skills weren't good enough and are not transferable to any other area of aviation.
Last edited by Clare Prop; 23rd Apr 2024 at 06:23.
It will take a young person decades of full time work to save up the cash required to pay for training up front.
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I am concerned with the ones who DON'T make it because that training they have had is of no use to GA. I talk to a lot of employers. They all need people with command time.
Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts
Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts
Similar to the podcast, which is mentioning gripes with the standard of CPL grads that entry level GA employers are encountering, not Cadet/Academy graduates heading straight into multi crew airlines. There may be concerns in respect to the quality of CPL grads heading into GA but that's a topic for another thread. In fact at 9:00 minutes in he acknowledges that there is a difference between schools that produce GA pilots vs schools that train cadet pilots.
The course is not comparable to "regular" schools, we can do a non-integrated (self-study) job ready CPL with 200 hours (around 125 command) for about $80,000. Straight into GA. Then they can get on the ladder and chose from a range of jobs and go on to airlines if they chose to. Many don't.
If a students is aiming for a career in GA then by all means do a 200 hour self study course. But as the title of the thread indicates that's a topic for another thread.
Last edited by dr dre; 23rd Apr 2024 at 06:58.
With the cost of flight training, entry level wages for school leavers and the cost of living I highly doubt that's true in 2024. I know young people (in other full time jobs) who are struggling to live and save up for an $80k home loan deposit by age 30-35 let alone have paid for flight training and be employable by 23.
Well here's where we deviate.
Funnily enough there was a surplus of entry level pilots even before the govt started handing out gigantic loans for it.
My CPL grads are all self-funded, they are found in all areas of aviation. I was also self-funded, I earned most of it and the rest was paid for by scholarships. I never borrowed or was given a cent towards it and had UK, USA and Australian CPLs by the age of 29. It was doable then and it is doable now.
The HELP system is a massive gravy train. It leaves a lot of casualties in its wake and makes a few people very rich. (eg Neel from Soar). You may not see them dre, but I do, before these loans there weren't these broken people who were promised the world but ended up crippled with debt for the rest of their lives.
Someone needs to crunch the numbers, not anecdotally, and present them to the taxpayers.
My CPL grads are all self-funded, they are found in all areas of aviation. I was also self-funded, I earned most of it and the rest was paid for by scholarships. I never borrowed or was given a cent towards it and had UK, USA and Australian CPLs by the age of 29. It was doable then and it is doable now.
The HELP system is a massive gravy train. It leaves a lot of casualties in its wake and makes a few people very rich. (eg Neel from Soar). You may not see them dre, but I do, before these loans there weren't these broken people who were promised the world but ended up crippled with debt for the rest of their lives.
Someone needs to crunch the numbers, not anecdotally, and present them to the taxpayers.
Last edited by Clare Prop; 23rd Apr 2024 at 10:46.
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I know people flying in the Middle East, Asia and USA etc who all paid for the flying training in Australia via HELP loans. None of these people have any intention of returning to Australia to pay it back. These where the ones who managed to find a job. Most say very few people they trained with where still in aviation 3 years after they finished.
Also, I got my CPL a few years before you could get HELP loans for it. Everyone I trained with had saved for a few years to come up with the money. We were a mixed bunch from ages 22 to 30. We all had worked in either mining/transport/trades etc and one guy had been in the Army. All the people I started with finished CPL. I don't recall anybody talking about a pilot shortage. Qlink at the time wanted 2500 total with 500 multi PIC and 100 night command.
When I went in North looking for work the majority of people seemed to be from NZ. After looking in NZ for a job they ended up in Oz. All of these people seemed to have gotten the NZ Govt to fund their CPL.
Fast forward a few years and my school had HELP loan funding. Every 6 months a class of 30 would arrive. All had just finished Yr12 and thought they would go straight to Qantas when they finished. They soon realise this probably won't happen and many drop out.
Even if a kid drops out, the school charges then the full amount for CPL training which goes on the HELP debt.
It is a rort and must be stopped. It is being taken advantage of by schools and students.
Also, I got my CPL a few years before you could get HELP loans for it. Everyone I trained with had saved for a few years to come up with the money. We were a mixed bunch from ages 22 to 30. We all had worked in either mining/transport/trades etc and one guy had been in the Army. All the people I started with finished CPL. I don't recall anybody talking about a pilot shortage. Qlink at the time wanted 2500 total with 500 multi PIC and 100 night command.
When I went in North looking for work the majority of people seemed to be from NZ. After looking in NZ for a job they ended up in Oz. All of these people seemed to have gotten the NZ Govt to fund their CPL.
Fast forward a few years and my school had HELP loan funding. Every 6 months a class of 30 would arrive. All had just finished Yr12 and thought they would go straight to Qantas when they finished. They soon realise this probably won't happen and many drop out.
Even if a kid drops out, the school charges then the full amount for CPL training which goes on the HELP debt.
It is a rort and must be stopped. It is being taken advantage of by schools and students.
Last edited by Climb150; 23rd Apr 2024 at 21:42.
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Another rort is that they charged for the lesson whether they turn up or not, a lot of the money goes on cancellation/no show fees. Nice for the flying school...no variable costs going out but keep the money anyway.
I have a stude who has walked away from a sausage factory and is currently building up command time. He is having to fight hard to get back thousands of dollars they made him pay up front. I don't like his chances.
I have a stude who has walked away from a sausage factory and is currently building up command time. He is having to fight hard to get back thousands of dollars they made him pay up front. I don't like his chances.
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British Airways did that successfully 60 years ago, so it’s not exactly a novel concept.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 24th Apr 2024 at 09:06.
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Plenty of airlines are doing that now. Singapore Flying College at Jandakot has been doing it for decades. We also had China Southern training there. I looked into a few cadet schemes when I was going for my CPL, they have always been around. The airline needs the pilots, they see them as an investment in thier future and they get a bond to ensure he investment isn;t wasted, Qantas and co don;t need to because there is a huge pool of people who are willing to put the risk onto themselves and the taxpayer.
The government funding for the CPL is only available at that same amount ($175,000 before admin fees and indexing) for vet, medical and dental students, who have achieved a top ATAR to be accepted onto the course and 100% of them have a good chance at a stable career at graduation, there is a true need for those skills, and importantly they will have the earning capacity to pay it back.
There is no such ATAR requirement for pilots. If the entry rate straight into an airline is indeed 65% (though anecdotally I hear it is far, far lower than that) then there are still 35% of them on the scrap heap, no good for GA without a great deal of further training.
Let's say there was a Royal Commission into how Neel Khokhami was able to fleece us all of millions of dollars and brag about it on the Rich List then leave the country with it in his pocket, other schools who have done similar, closed their doors and left the staff and students students high and dry. Let's say they realised that the funding is, let's put it nicely, inappropriate given the difference it isn't making to a perceived pilot shortage compared to a few people getting very, very rich.
Let's say the funding was reduced, suspended, or stopped altogether. What would the airlines do then? What did they do before?
The government funding for the CPL is only available at that same amount ($175,000 before admin fees and indexing) for vet, medical and dental students, who have achieved a top ATAR to be accepted onto the course and 100% of them have a good chance at a stable career at graduation, there is a true need for those skills, and importantly they will have the earning capacity to pay it back.
There is no such ATAR requirement for pilots. If the entry rate straight into an airline is indeed 65% (though anecdotally I hear it is far, far lower than that) then there are still 35% of them on the scrap heap, no good for GA without a great deal of further training.
Let's say there was a Royal Commission into how Neel Khokhami was able to fleece us all of millions of dollars and brag about it on the Rich List then leave the country with it in his pocket, other schools who have done similar, closed their doors and left the staff and students students high and dry. Let's say they realised that the funding is, let's put it nicely, inappropriate given the difference it isn't making to a perceived pilot shortage compared to a few people getting very, very rich.
Let's say the funding was reduced, suspended, or stopped altogether. What would the airlines do then? What did they do before?
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