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A Quick "poll" if you have a moment. Much appreciated

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.
View Poll Results: Have CASA achieved clear and concise aviation safety standards as per the Act?
Yes, they have
21
2.15%
No, they have not
893
91.22%
Don't know/undecided
5
0.51%
Should Australia adopt the New Zealand Regs?
60
6.13%
Voters: 979. This poll is closed

A Quick "poll" if you have a moment. Much appreciated

Old 25th Mar 2019, 09:15
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: melbourne
Age: 54
Posts: 360
A Quick "poll" if you have a moment. Much appreciated

Good Evening, I was at a community event on the weekend and got chatting to a young lawyer about the impact of red tape, and bureaucracy on business. We drifted on to CASAs obligations to "achieve clear and concise aviation safety standards", as one of their functions in the Act. This lawyer didn't believe me when I suggested that over 80% of our Industry would state that in fact we DONT have "clear and concise aviation safety standards". I suggested I would take a quick poll on here, to see how close to the 80% ,mark I was. I intend to catch up with him again this week, so would be keen to try and get 100 hundred responses if possible. (It makes it much easier to work out the percentage), and obviously all responses would be appreciated.

So the question "Have CASA achieved clear and concise aviation safety standards as is required of them as one of their core functions in the Civil Aviation Act"?

Comments welcome, and those answering in the affirmative, could you quote your current medical status. If these polls work, I might call on your assistance on another topic. I will see what sort of response I get here. By the way, I am thick skinned so feel free to heap s$%t on me if you feel it appropriate.

Cheers All.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 26th Mar 2019 at 02:52. Reason: Add a voting poll
glenb is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 09:33
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by glenb View Post
Good Evening, I was at a community event on the weekend and got chatting to a young lawyer about the impact of red tape, and bureaucracy on business. We drifted on to CASAs obligations to "achieve clear and concise aviation safety standards", as one of their functions in the Act. This lawyer didn't believe me when I suggested that over 80% of our Industry would state that in fact we DONT have "clear and concise aviation safety standards". I suggested I would take a quick poll on here, to see how close to the 80% ,mark I was. I intend to catch up with him again this week, so would be keen to try and get 100 hundred responses if possible. (It makes it much easier to work out the percentage), and obviously all responses would be appreciated.

So the question "Have CASA achieved clear and concise aviation safety standards as is required of them as one of their core functions in the Civil Aviation Act"?

Comments welcome, and those answering in the affirmative, could you quote your current medical status. If these polls work, I might call on your assistance on another topic. I will see what sort of response I get here. By the way, I am thick skinned so feel free to heap s$%t on me if you feel it appropriate.

Cheers All.
Haha, that funny. You’ll get closer to 100 percent disagreeing with that. There is nothing clear and concise about anything associated with CASA.
Cloudee is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 09:50
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 78
As I found on the weekend...

What lights do you need on an aircraft for day VFR? How about night VFR or IFR?

What lights do 99% of GA aircraft have?

Now read CAR 196.

As far as we could figure out from CAR 196, all aircraft (excluding RA) must display (even in the middle of the day) the three navigation lights (red/white/green) and two red strobes (because a single fin-mounted strobe doesn't get you the required viewing angles). In the US (at least based on literature from Whelen) you can apparently use either a red or a white strobe, and of course many planes in Australia use this approach - white strobes on the wingtips meet the required viewing angles and can be neatly integrated into the navigation lights, negating the need for a red strobe (particularly under the fuselage). However, from CAR 196 these planes are not legal.

Quite apart from being confusing (is there actually a rule that you can't put diagrams in a legal document?) it'd be much simpler if we just followed the US approach - which appears to be what everyone actually does despite what CASA says.
Slatye is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 10:07
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: adelaide, Australia
Posts: 425
Unless this has just come into effect ,something doesn't sound correct here. As 90% of the single engine GA fleet wouldn't have 2 red strobes. What they have is usually 1 red beacon (a flashing red lamp not strobe) on the fin or top of the fuselage. Some aircraft also have white strobes on the wing tips but probably less than 50% in total. Plus ofcourse nav lights.
mostlytossas is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 10:29
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Join Date: Feb 2017
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Posts: 283
my vote is: neither clear nor concise.

They have been re-writing the regulations to make them clearer and more concise for decades - a project that has always been 'soon to be completed' since the early 1990s. I think the last statement to the recent senate review was there was only 5% left to do.

In those decades the volume of regulations has been "concisified" into a plethora of extra documents, it went from CARs and CAOs into CARs, CAOs, CASRs, CAAPs, (many of which are now individually larger than the original documents they were meant to concisely replace) and they have also been simplified to the point where you need a PhD in law to understand if you have exceeded your flight and duty times.

Rather than do a survey, hand your lawyer friend copies of the CARs, CASRs, CAOs and AIPs - he/she may need a wheelbarrow - and ask them to quickly find, if under the law as it stands now, can a student pilot who last had a dual check 15 days ago, be sent solo? If they are struggling, guide them to CASR 61.115. Then when they think they have the answer, tell him them they also need to look up all the exemptions to the regulations that have had to be made when it was realised the changes were too hastily drawn up without an understanding of the implications and show them "Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 CASA EX46/18 — Dual Flight Checks before Solo Flights (Student Pilots) Exemption 2018". Then show them how many of these exemptions there are.

Then ask them: "how a humble flying instructor (without legal training) can keep on top of all these regulations and exemptions?"

CASA have a regulatory system that focuses on adding more and more convoluted regulation with a focus on forcing compliance and finding individual culpability and resultant punishment to improve safety.

Instructors are required (by CASA) to do Human Factors Training (under threat of $10k fine if not complying). That compulsory training strongly stresses the need to develop a safety culture that encourages self reporting of failures without fear of retribution, that fosters openness about safety failings to find underlying systemic issues and to continually enhance safety.

This seems to me to be ludicrous. CASA Left Hand: "Be open and honest and don't fear punishment for failure. That is the safety culture we want"
CASA Right hand: "If we find you didn't follow a regulation buried inches deep in volume 5 of the CASR, you will be fined and sanctioned"



rant over. Simple answer - count me in the 80%!
jonkster is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 11:17
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Definitely NOT clear, and NOT CONCISE.

Just try to read any CASA do. and you'll soon give up from pure 'fatigue'...….

No CHEERS..Nope...NONE at ALL!!
Ex FSO GRIFFO is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 11:57
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 342
Moat definitely NO
cogwheel is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 12:05
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 226
No way clear, no way concise. How can 250 pages describing ONLY pilot licences plus 650 pages of associated "standards" be concise $#%@%[email protected]!! That's just Part 61 for pilot licences - haven't got near an aircraft yet.
drpixie is online now  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 20:50
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Geostationary Orbit
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Not clear, not concise. = FAILED.
thunderbird five is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 21:03
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 243
I vote not clear and not concise
flywatcher is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 21:26
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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There is nothing clear and concise about anything that CASA controls or has indeed touched. Medical status class 1 until our revered regulator works out how to take that away as well.
Defenestrator is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 22:08
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
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I find the section that refers you to another section that refers you to another, in particular the CASR’s, leaves me thinking, “What was the the first bit about again.” That’s not clear or concise.
Blueyonda is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 22:21
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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neither clear nor concise, complexity way past the fraudulent level......................
miroho is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 22:23
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
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The regulations are "Clear": Clearly we are all criminals! The regulations are concise as in 'to the point', the point being only Military and Airlines should be flying!

You know the regulations are completely incomprehensible when you ring CASA for an explanation and even the guy who wrote the original regulation cannot understand it! Their comment was "it was fine until it got sent to Legal" (this actually happened!!!!)

So, no, the current regulations are not clear and concise by any normal meaning of those words.
Dexta is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 22:40
  #15 (permalink)  
 
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I vote not clear and not concise
Dark Knight is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 23:15
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Join Date: Jul 2001
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
I vote not clear and not concise
As do I and anybody else who has had any but the most superficial experience of aviation law in Australia.

Advise your lawyer friend that the various aviation "laws" are on a par with the tax regulations for size and complexity, then refer him to the Rule of Law Institute of Australia to explain what that means.

Finally, advise him that the informal policy of CASA , not to be found in any mission statement, is that:" The aviation law is for the safe conviction of pilots and engineers**" ---- the present form and complexity, rigidity and prescription of the regulations never did and does not have anything to do with aviation "safety".

Tootle pip!!

** Statement to the Program Advisory Panel (PAP) of the CASA Review, by CASA lawyer giving testimony to the panel, around 1997.
LeadSled is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2019, 00:40
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aust.
Posts: 84
Definite no from me
airag is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2019, 00:58
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 302
The poll results are as expected so far.

@Glen: I'm not sure how much (objective) weight asking ppruners will carry. Perhaps you should physically go to Aspeq test centres and ask candidates to the CPL air law (and those to the RPL and PPL tests too) the very same question. Ideally you'd have a form with relevant questions.
Okihara is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2019, 01:34
  #19 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
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the poll

Thankyou so far, for your involvement. I can assure you that this will all be leading to something, so please keep the responses coming. Cheers. Glen
glenb is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2019, 02:12
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Going home
Posts: 239
Classic example is the lighting requirements for pilot activated lighting and the need for alternates under various circumstances. Who dreams up of this garbage? I've flown in the USA to airfields with pilot activate lighting and there's none of the complications that our system requires.
VH DSJ is offline  

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