Land anywhere within gable markers?

[Okihara]

Just having my doubts on this: are you allowed to land anywhere within the gable markers past the threshold, even if the runway has a sealed portion? ie. is it legal to land on the grass portion alongside the sealed runway if you choose to do so (e.g. for theoretical operational purposes such as being unable to land upwind hence downwind but then on grass for a shorter landing roll)?

Can anyone point out to any reference?

Thanks!

[Vag277]

Okihara
Legality is not the issue here.More a matter of whether or not you want to damage your aeroplane. The surface standards in MOS 139 for the runway and the runway strip are quire different. See table 6.2.4A in the Part 139 MOS . That is why the new Part 139 wants aerodrome operators to specifically state if they have prepared the runway strip for normal operations.

[Okihara]

Thanks for that input, Vag. Now, assuming that you know the aerodrome well and that you're confident that you can make a safe and uneventful landing on the grass/gravel, would that be perfectly legit then? No eyebrow raised? It just seems odd to think that there's no provision to that end.

[Vag277]

Entirely up to aerodrome operator. No operational prohibition. Also remember, the standards only apply to regulated aerodromes - less than 600.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 92

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 168

Dig up CAAP 92-1 for ALA operations

I would have posted the full text but editor concatenates to unreadable parsing

Just to add, there is another reg or definition somewhere in the AIP that also forbids a pilot from using anything other than the formed runway surface. I think it only applies to certified aerodromes. If you are under 5700kg and not RPT/Charter you are safe to go as per these regs and the CAAP

add to add-
AC139-6(0)Use of Restricted Operations (Dumb-Bell) ground signal

[roundsounds]

Originally Posted by Okihara

Just having my doubts on this: are you allowed to land anywhere within the gable markers past the threshold, even if the runway has a sealed portion? ie. is it legal to land on the grass portion alongside the sealed runway if you choose to do so (e.g. for theoretical operational purposes such as being unable to land upwind hence downwind but then on grass for a shorter landing roll)?

Can anyone point out to any reference?

Thanks!

best to use your own judgement and not ask the question. A number of airport operators are routinely issuing NOTAMs to stop these activities. This is what happens when you have Council’s run airports.
The operators of these airports don’t consider the fact that my 1930s era aircraft was designed to operate from paddocks and is more likely to suffer damage landing on a sealed runway in a crosswind than landing on the flight strip. I reckon they think it’s like driving a car on the footpath.

[Vag277]

Unfortunately tail skid/no brakes aircraft represent only about 1% of the fleet so are unlikely to grab the attention of most aerodrome operators, regardless of who they are. Some do cater for "real aeroplanes", others don't want the runway strip ploughed when soft & wet.

[Vag277]

Correction to my post #5. There are 324 aerodromes subject to Part 139. Many others try to meet relevant parts of the MOS or CAAP 92-1.Only the 324 can issue NOTAM

[roundsounds]

Originally Posted by Vag277

Unfortunately tail skid/no brakes aircraft represent only about 1% of the fleet so are unlikely to grab the attention of most aerodrome operators, regardless of who they are. Some do cater for "real aeroplanes", others don't want the runway strip ploughed when soft & wet.

my aircraft is American designed and built so has brakes and a tailwheel. It’s only the finest British engineered machines had skids and no brakes in that era. The USA were building the Lockheed 10A, while the British were still building the Dragon.

[Vag277]

.....and built in oil leaks for rust proofing, lots of bits where one could do the job and highest maintenance bits inaccessible except to midgets with 3 elbows. But still with classic appeal.

[AbsoluteFokker]

Would continuous grass exposure blade have unintended maintenance consequences on lower undercarriage components?

i.e. whipper-snipper effect - i.e. weakening of components through death-by-a-thousand-cuts (well probably millions)

Possibly only an issue for high-cycle aircraft (firefighting, meat bombing etc.)

[YPJT]

I know of one jet that pulled it off on a mining strip in WA
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2017-014/

[LeadSled]

Originally Posted by Vag277

.....and built in oil leaks for rust proofing, lots of bits where one could do the job and highest maintenance bits inaccessible except to midgets with 3 elbows. But still with classic appeal.

Design "features" that were perfected with their large offerings, such as main galleys directly above avionics compartments, ensuring optimal spillage runoff paths, to name but one of hundreds I could quote.
Back to thread ---- remember, "back in the day", very few UK airfields, including RAF bases, had the luxury of sealed runways. Which in some ways accounted for very small fins and rudders and lousy yaw stability --- because you never had a crosswind --- fields were all over grass, the windsock governed all.
Tootle pip!!.

[The sod]

Okhira, I have been landing off the seal for many years. If its your home field then you should know the surface.
If you are using an unfamiliar field then care should be taken, maybe have a low flyby or perhaps don't even risk it.
Most fields I have seen are ok off the seal but there is always the odd one which will catch you out.
Don't ask for permission as a refusal may offend.

[Okihara]

Thanks for the many pointers to you all. I have some reading up to do.

[The name is Porter]

Used to land the Caravan on the grass beside the runway at Caloundra. It pissed some of the 'locals' off, but I'd get the clipboard if I didn't.

It wasn't an issue for the Van.

[Pera]

I once had a joy flight in a private Tiger Moth where we had taken off from a farm to land back at the local aerodrome. As we approached the runway the aircraft was appearing to miss the runway and as the pilot was elderly I was slightly concerned. We landed on the grass within the runway strip safely and I learnt a bit about tail skids. Years later I saw aerodrome operators in a tizz over a Tiger Moth doing exactly the same thing at a controlled airport. Apparently the grass isn't always safe to land on in their opinion. Not sure if there's anything letting a pilot know this limitation.

I was slightly concerned that the grass wasn't deemed to be safe within the runway strip.

[Vag277]

Pera

See post #2

[kaz3g]

I was inbound Alice Springs via Deep Well in my Auster a few years ago in awful strong, gusty winds. The tower gave me an update of the ATIS and the direction was veering all over the place.

i asked if the grass was available and she came back with a negative. Luckily the wind was pointing down the strip as I landed and I was able to taxi to the parking bays looking somewhat wistfully at the lovely, wide expanse of manicured grass beside the bitumen.

I went up and spoke to the Contrroller afterwards and told her the grass looked terrific and would have been by far the best option for a tail-dragger especially in cross-winds of 20+KN. She said that they thought it would be too rough and didn’t understand the demands that cross-winds could impose.

it was a billiard table compared to some place I have landed.

kaz