Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Land anywhere within gable markers?

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Land anywhere within gable markers?

Old 5th Mar 2019, 04:02
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 347
Land anywhere within gable markers?

Just having my doubts on this: are you allowed to land anywhere within the gable markers past the threshold, even if the runway has a sealed portion? ie. is it legal to land on the grass portion alongside the sealed runway if you choose to do so (e.g. for theoretical operational purposes such as being unable to land upwind hence downwind but then on grass for a shorter landing roll)?

Can anyone point out to any reference?

Thanks!
Okihara is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 05:50
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 209
Okihara
Legality is not the issue here.More a matter of whether or not you want to damage your aeroplane. The surface standards in MOS 139 for the runway and the runway strip are quire different. See table 6.2.4A in the Part 139 MOS . That is why the new Part 139 wants aerodrome operators to specifically state if they have prepared the runway strip for normal operations.
Vag277 is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 06:13
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 347
Thanks for that input, Vag. Now, assuming that you know the aerodrome well and that you're confident that you can make a safe and uneventful landing on the grass/gravel, would that be perfectly legit then? No eyebrow raised? It just seems odd to think that there's no provision to that end.
Okihara is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 06:31
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 209
Entirely up to aerodrome operator. No operational prohibition. Also remember, the standards only apply to regulated aerodromes - less than 600.
Vag277 is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 06:42
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: YMML
Posts: 2,477
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 92

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 168

Dig up CAAP 92-1 for ALA operations

I would have posted the full text but editor concatenates to unreadable parsing

Just to add, there is another reg or definition somewhere in the AIP that also forbids a pilot from using anything other than the formed runway surface. I think it only applies to certified aerodromes. If you are under 5700kg and not RPT/Charter you are safe to go as per these regs and the CAAP

add to add-
AC139-6(0)Use of Restricted Operations (Dumb-Bell) ground signal

Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 5th Mar 2019 at 07:04.
OZBUSDRIVER is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 07:16
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Age: 57
Posts: 372
Originally Posted by Okihara View Post
Just having my doubts on this: are you allowed to land anywhere within the gable markers past the threshold, even if the runway has a sealed portion? ie. is it legal to land on the grass portion alongside the sealed runway if you choose to do so (e.g. for theoretical operational purposes such as being unable to land upwind hence downwind but then on grass for a shorter landing roll)?

Can anyone point out to any reference?

Thanks!
best to use your own judgement and not ask the question. A number of airport operators are routinely issuing NOTAMs to stop these activities. This is what happens when you have Councilís run airports.
The operators of these airports donít consider the fact that my 1930s era aircraft was designed to operate from paddocks and is more likely to suffer damage landing on a sealed runway in a crosswind than landing on the flight strip. I reckon they think itís like driving a car on the footpath.
roundsounds is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 07:36
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 209
Unfortunately tail skid/no brakes aircraft represent only about 1% of the fleet so are unlikely to grab the attention of most aerodrome operators, regardless of who they are. Some do cater for "real aeroplanes", others don't want the runway strip ploughed when soft & wet.
Vag277 is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 08:26
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 209
Correction to my post #5. There are 324 aerodromes subject to Part 139. Many others try to meet relevant parts of the MOS or CAAP 92-1.Only the 324 can issue NOTAM
Vag277 is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 09:44
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Age: 57
Posts: 372
Originally Posted by Vag277 View Post
Unfortunately tail skid/no brakes aircraft represent only about 1% of the fleet so are unlikely to grab the attention of most aerodrome operators, regardless of who they are. Some do cater for "real aeroplanes", others don't want the runway strip ploughed when soft & wet.
my aircraft is American designed and built so has brakes and a tailwheel. Itís only the finest British engineered machines had skids and no brakes in that era. The USA were building the Lockheed 10A, while the British were still building the Dragon.
roundsounds is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 10:05
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 209
.....and built in oil leaks for rust proofing, lots of bits where one could do the job and highest maintenance bits inaccessible except to midgets with 3 elbows. But still with classic appeal.
Vag277 is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 13:10
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Perth
Posts: 87
Would continuous grass exposure blade have unintended maintenance consequences on lower undercarriage components?

i.e. whipper-snipper effect - i.e. weakening of components through death-by-a-thousand-cuts (well probably millions)

Possibly only an issue for high-cycle aircraft (firefighting, meat bombing etc.)
AbsoluteFokker is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 15:02
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 1,273
I know of one jet that pulled it off on a mining strip in WA
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2017-014/

Last edited by YPJT; 5th Mar 2019 at 15:42.
YPJT is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2019, 23:01
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,942
Originally Posted by Vag277 View Post
.....and built in oil leaks for rust proofing, lots of bits where one could do the job and highest maintenance bits inaccessible except to midgets with 3 elbows. But still with classic appeal.
Design "features" that were perfected with their large offerings, such as main galleys directly above avionics compartments, ensuring optimal spillage runoff paths, to name but one of hundreds I could quote.
Back to thread ---- remember, "back in the day", very few UK airfields, including RAF bases, had the luxury of sealed runways. Which in some ways accounted for very small fins and rudders and lousy yaw stability --- because you never had a crosswind --- fields were all over grass, the windsock governed all.
Tootle pip!!.
LeadSled is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2019, 00:33
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 9
Land anywhere within gable markers

Okhira, I have been landing off the seal for many years. If its your home field then you should know the surface.
If you are using an unfamiliar field then care should be taken, maybe have a low flyby or perhaps don't even risk it.
Most fields I have seen are ok off the seal but there is always the odd one which will catch you out.
Don't ask for permission as a refusal may offend.
The sod is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2019, 02:44
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 347
Thanks for the many pointers to you all. I have some reading up to do.
Okihara is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2019, 10:39
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 826
Used to land the Caravan on the grass beside the runway at Caloundra. It pissed some of the 'locals' off, but I'd get the clipboard if I didn't.

It wasn't an issue for the Van.
The name is Porter is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2019, 00:04
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 183
I once had a joy flight in a private Tiger Moth where we had taken off from a farm to land back at the local aerodrome. As we approached the runway the aircraft was appearing to miss the runway and as the pilot was elderly I was slightly concerned. We landed on the grass within the runway strip safely and I learnt a bit about tail skids. Years later I saw aerodrome operators in a tizz over a Tiger Moth doing exactly the same thing at a controlled airport. Apparently the grass isn't always safe to land on in their opinion. Not sure if there's anything letting a pilot know this limitation.

I was slightly concerned that the grass wasn't deemed to be safe within the runway strip.
Pera is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2019, 00:23
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 209
Pera

See post #2
Vag277 is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2019, 11:36
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 717
I was inbound Alice Springs via Deep Well in my Auster a few years ago in awful strong, gusty winds. The tower gave me an update of the ATIS and the direction was veering all over the place.

i asked if the grass was available and she came back with a negative. Luckily the wind was pointing down the strip as I landed and I was able to taxi to the parking bays looking somewhat wistfully at the lovely, wide expanse of manicured grass beside the bitumen.

I went up and spoke to the Contrroller afterwards and told her the grass looked terrific and would have been by far the best option for a tail-dragger especially in cross-winds of 20+KN. She said that they thought it would be too rough and didn’t understand the demands that cross-winds could impose.

it was a billiard table compared to some place I have landed.

kaz
kaz3g is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.