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CASA says air taxis within 5 years

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CASA says air taxis within 5 years

Old 4th Jan 2019, 09:53
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting video and very commendable for being honest enough to post the performance figures.

I saw figures of of the electric R44 pulling 250Nm in the hover (the Lycoming IO-540 is rated at 168Kw or roughly 168Nm) and this electric version was using 30% more torque when single pilot.
I also saw figures of 250 Amps being used, the latest Tesla P100D is rated at 100 Amps and if used at once then a cooling period is required, if done regularly then a new set of batteries are in order.
Finally, the flight test was done in 2016, over 2 years ago. If this electric caper was really viable I would guess we would be seeing more recent videos and better performance figures, but alas, we are well and truly stuck with the same problem that has plagued this technology since the times of the ancient Egyptians - the battery.
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 11:24
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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IO540 in the R44 is rated at 245hp which is 646Nm at 2700. Electric motors are probably geared differently.

The OP quotes power figures in the comments of the video. 105kW in cruise. 140kW IGE hover, 160kW OGE. 700V 70-odd kWh battery from memory.

I think a Tesla model S pulls waaay more than 100A (edit: 1600A apparently for ludicrous mode capable battery packs)

Last edited by Andy_RR; 4th Jan 2019 at 11:37.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 01:31
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Bell Air Taxi
At CES 2019
Bell Air Taxi
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 01:41
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
Bell Air Taxi
At CES 2019
Bell Air Taxi
Very flash commercial, fanciful stuff though:-) Notice the subjects used in that propaganda? Well healed & of normal size. Fat Yanks & fat Aussies are gunna be out of the question and the idea of someone that fat flying overhead whilst eating Mackers just doesn't seem to fit the fairytale that Bell are putting out there:-)

I look Fwd to the skies filled with these things, maybe in the next life, maybe:-)
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 02:01
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone passing through Darwin Airport should make sure you look out the window toward the south-eastern end of the runway. If you get lucky you will see one of the U.S. Marines V-22 that rotate through Darwin on a regular basis. Watching one of these frightening contraptions taxi and transition to flight will disabuse any rational observer of the idea that anything like that is going to be a realistic option for public transport any time soon. How Bell and Boeing have got them to work at all is miraculous.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 02:04
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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In the IT industry, that video is classified as “smoke and mirrors”. A marketing concept vehicle that will be nothing like the sad reality.

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Old 8th Jan 2019, 02:18
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly right Sunfish. The funny thing is that a helicopter can already do that type of transport, the fact that they do not (regularly) shows that it is not a market that works.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 04:22
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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I dunno George. I think they're amazing, but at least also an order of magnitude larger than what's needed for any possible air-taxi operation.


As far as helicopters being a present-day analog, I'll repeat what I said earlier - they're expensive to operate in terms of power, maintenance complexity and skill level. That's a lot of stuff to be paid for before you get to the payload bit...
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 04:53
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Innovation is far from dead catching up with us fast.

250 remote controlled air Taxis anyone?
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 05:03
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Question -

In the event of the battery pack 'shorting out' / Lithium exploding - or whatever - what do youse think is the likelihood of a successful 'auto rotate' back to the surface of the Earth,
or whatever is directly underneath you at the time, hoping that it won't be a busy freeway / high-rise / high tension power lines / train track in peak hour.....etc you get the drift.
Cheers

Just curious is all......
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 05:29
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like Bell are jumping right into it...

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/new...-232092-1.html
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 18:38
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_RR View Post
As far as helicopters being a present-day analog, I'll repeat what I said earlier - they're expensive to operate in terms of power, maintenance complexity and skill level. That's a lot of stuff to be paid for before you get to the payload bit...
Can you explain how these will be any less expensive to operate in terms of power maintenance and complexity? I'll concede the skill level might the lower, but won't reduce the overall cost significantly.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 22:30
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Still gonna need approximately the same power to lift the airframe, pax, battery pack and a load of electrons. Stored chemical energy is a lot quicker to refill than a flat battery. Need round electrons to roll through the wires, then a round-to-flat converter to allow the flat electrons to be packed into the battery. Then there is the supply of coloured electrons to put in the glass screens.

The world is made of protons, neutrons, electrons, and morons.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 23:13
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 27/09 View Post
Can you explain how these will be any less expensive to operate in terms of power maintenance and complexity? I'll concede the skill level might the lower, but won't reduce the overall cost significantly.
Maintenance required on the electric motors will be far less than a turbine, thatís for sure!

There is already an electric LSA model operating successfully in multiple flying schools world-wide. There are no regulator maintenance items on the motor and the TBO is 2,000 hours!

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Old 9th Jan 2019, 07:54
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post


Maintenance required on the electric motors will be far less than a turbine, thatís for sure!

There is already an electric LSA model operating successfully in multiple flying schools world-wide. There are no regulator maintenance items on the motor and the TBO is 2,000 hours!

Granted the electric motors will be cheaper to maintain, but no one has mentioned the battery technology. There are six monthly capacity check requirements now for the batteries in your ICE powered aircraft though I suspect many owners aren't complying with these requirements. Just have a look at the requirements for the likes of the Concorde batteries currently in use. I'd imagine there will be even a higher level of capacity testing when a battery is the motive source.

Also your comparison is for a non certified aircraft, these Air Taxis will need to be certified with the attendant costs that come with certification.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 09:49
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Originally Posted by 27/09 View Post
Granted the electric motors will be cheaper to maintain, but no one has mentioned the battery technology. There are six monthly capacity check requirements now for the batteries in your ICE powered aircraft though I suspect many owners aren't complying with these requirements. Just have a look at the requirements for the likes of the Concorde batteries currently in use. I'd imagine there will be even a higher level of capacity testing when a battery is the motive source.

Also your comparison is for a non certified aircraft, these Air Taxis will need to be certified with the attendant costs that come with certification.

battery technology is the main thing that has limited the advancement of any EP machine and will continue to be so for a very long time yet! Weight, storage capacity, cost and replenishment time will always be what holds back this fanciful idea on a large commercial scale.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 11:23
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I'm imagining that once you have battery management systems, motor controllers and flight control systems then maintenance will become more like a continuous condition monitoring process by electronic means along with almost all preflight tasks. At least some of the high end UAVs are doing this at least partially and most of the big jet turbines are likewise under continuous surveillance.

Battery capacity will be determined every discharge-charge cycle.

Last edited by Andy_RR; 9th Jan 2019 at 11:34.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 12:10
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 601 View Post
What stations/ autonomous transport port. Isn't the whole idea to do away with "hubs" so you can go from point to point.
People point to the disrupters as a model for this form of transport.
But all the disrupters have done so far is develop an App and use a proven transport system - cars, bikes and now scooters. The only difference between a taxi and these disrupters is the use of an app to allow people to access private vehicles and undercut what was a tightly controlled transport model in the case of taxis.

They have not introduces a "new" transport system. Just an app that can organise a driver and a vehicle for you. Taxis have had that system in place for years. They just used an older technology (phones - remember them) but have now developed their own apps which work well.

Now with this autonomous transport system using a flying vehicle of some description, not only do they have to develop the app for organising the ride, but the mode of transport and the underlying system to support it. Landing and takeoff sites, navigation system, battery charging systems, maintenance systems, noise abatement, autonomous control or pilot control are some of the hurdles to overcome.

A previous post mentioned a sea of red lights on the highways. Just imagine a swarm of large noisy electric vehicles converging on Sydney Harbour for the New Years fireworks and then all trying to get home. Where will they park for a couple of hours?

I remember sitting on the grass outside a unit in Kirribilli watching the boat traffic after the 2000 fireworks. The boat traffic was that crowded you could have walked from Kirribilli to the Opera House across the Harbour by hopping from one boat to the next.

Just imagine cruising at 500 feet over the Sydney CBD while tweeting your latest thoughts to all your followers only to hear or see "Lost satellite reception" come up on the app that is communicating with your autonomous transport system.
The mind boggles!!

.

Uber did not introduce a whole new transport system, just an app to organise private vehicles and drivers. Same with these scooters that have resulted in a fivefold increase in admissions to the ER departments for injuries.
It's worse than that. By using private vehicles, offloaded a lot of capital risks onto the operator "contractor" and at the same time skirted traditional employment contributions and safety regulations. Some of the "savings" were passed on to the consumer...they kept the rest.

Quite often the driver "contractors" make minimum wage or less...and that's before vehicle depreciation is taken into account. To me a lot of the disruption is figuring out a way to semi legally exploit workers to work for less than what's advertised.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 21:23
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Andy:
I'm imagining that once you have battery management systems, motor controllers and flight control systems then maintenance will become more like a continuous condition monitoring process by electronic means along with almost all preflight tasks. At least some of the high end UAVs are doing this at least partially and most of the big jet turbines are likewise under continuous surveillance.

Battery capacity will be determined every discharge-charge cycle.
..........That would be logical, so, based on experience to date, CASA will introduce Australia specific unique test and inspection requirements on top of anything the FAA specifies. These requirements will then triple the cost of deployment in Australia compared to the USA.

Yes, I know I’m cynical.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 22:30
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Andy:

..........That would be logical, so, based on experience to date, CASA will introduce Australia specific unique test and inspection requirements on top of anything the FAA specifies. These requirements will then triple the cost of deployment in Australia compared to the USA.

Yes, I know I’m cynical.
Sunfish,
Born of long experience of the Australian approach to bureaucratic obfuscation and interference, no doubt not limited to aviation ---- where "safety" (whatever that means) is the unrestrained multiplier.
Tootle pip!!
PS: As many people are now just starting to find out ----- the "economy" of their Prius or Tesla did not include the cost of replacement batteries, nor the real cost of disposal of the exhausted batteries. One supportable analysis (meaning reasonably neutral or unbiased numbers) shows that the only state where an electric car would be "more green" in Australia would be Tasmania, because the recharge source is mostly hydro power.
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