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RFDS Pilatus PC24

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Old 6th Dec 2018, 07:59
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Broome to a Kimberly/Pilbara location - on to Darwin for a MED 1 is an option I would be happy with.

Darwin Hospital saved my bacon a couple of times - Perth may have had different outcomes in both my cases.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 01:17
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So a point of the Broome basing (of a jet) is that it is the busiest base in the north of WA, it has an increased capacity 3 stretchers and will get to the patient faster.
Bend alot, I thank you for your exhaustive efforts to answer my question, but I suspect you are answering a slightly different question to what I have asked (see my post #52). My question is:

Why the Broome basing when everything the Broome-based jet can do could be done by a Perth/Jandakot based jet with exactly the same time frames?

These jets will be capable of short landings and take offs on dirt and unsealed airstrips which is essential to emergency evacuations in many parts of Western Australia, including the Kimberley.
Watch out for the RFDS PR spin. Notice they always say the jets "are capable of ... dirt and unsealed", but never actually say that they will be operating on dirt/unsealed. The "emergency evacuations" line could also just be the PR machine.

Let's take a look at exactly which "dirt" strips they will be conducting "emergency evacuations" from. Firstly, keep in mind that an "emergency evacuation" can only be done from one of the places that is not a major centre. This is because the major centres all have hospitals. Any emergency will first go to a hospital for stabilisation. That will usually take several hours. Once the patient is in hospital, it is no longer an emergency.

The major centres are Broome, Derby, Kununurra, Wyndham, Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek. Almost the only places that can take the jet.

Which other places can take the jet, and don't have hospitals?

Balgo Hill. To my understanding of that part of the world, this is the only strip that is long enough (and wide enough). But, it has an elevation of over 1,000' and is gravel. The combination of gravel and high elevation would make for a takeoff performance requirement that is outside the capability of this jet for probably half the year, I believe.

So, with the possible exception of Balgo Hill, all the dirt/unsealed emergency work will continue to be done by the PC-12. It will take the turboprop several hours to get these patients to a major centre, from where they could be transferred onto the jet for carriage to Perth or Darwin.

But, having transferred the patient to a major centre, do they now go into the hospital there, or onto the jet? Most will go to the hospital.

In the time taken to get the patient to the major centre, the jet could have been making its way up from Perth/Jandakot. So why all the expense of the Broome basing when the same result could be achieved with the Perth basing? Those extra 5-6 Broome houses and allowances would surely add up to near a million dollars per year. As a taxpayer paying for about 80% of the RFDS, I am interested in the new ways they are finding to waste my money.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 01:40
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
Bend alot, I thank you for your exhaustive efforts to answer my question, but I suspect you are answering a slightly different question to what I have asked (see my post #52). My question is:

Why the Broome basing when everything the Broome-based jet can do could be done by a Perth/Jandakot based jet with exactly the same time frames?

Watch out for the RFDS PR spin. Notice they always say the jets "are capable of ... dirt and unsealed", but never actually say that they will be operating on dirt/unsealed. The "emergency evacuations" line could also just be the PR machine.

Let's take a look at exactly which "dirt" strips they will be conducting "emergency evacuations" from. Firstly, keep in mind that an "emergency evacuation" can only be done from one of the places that is not a major centre. This is because the major centres all have hospitals. Any emergency will first go to a hospital for stabilisation. That will usually take several hours. Once the patient is in hospital, it is no longer an emergency.

The major centres are Broome, Derby, Kununurra, Wyndham, Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek. Almost the only places that can take the jet.

Which other places can take the jet, and don't have hospitals?

Balgo Hill. To my understanding of that part of the world, this is the only strip that is long enough (and wide enough). But, it has an elevation of over 1,000' and is gravel. The combination of gravel and high elevation would make for a takeoff performance requirement that is outside the capability of this jet for probably half the year, I believe.

So, with the possible exception of Balgo Hill, all the dirt/unsealed emergency work will continue to be done by the PC-12. It will take the turboprop several hours to get these patients to a major centre, from where they could be transferred onto the jet for carriage to Perth or Darwin.

But, having transferred the patient to a major centre, do they now go into the hospital there, or onto the jet? Most will go to the hospital.

In the time taken to get the patient to the major centre, the jet could have been making its way up from Perth/Jandakot. So why all the expense of the Broome basing when the same result could be achieved with the Perth basing? Those extra 5-6 Broome houses and allowances would surely add up to near a million dollars per year. As a taxpayer paying for about 80% of the RFDS, I am interested in the new ways they are finding to waste my money.
...............….yet another excellent post there FGD:-) Again most wont understand the logistics of this sort of operation, the RFDS PR spin is in overtime! The risk of operating this jet out of dirt strips would be high, anyone consider the wildlife that inhabits these grounds? One Roo could mean an expensive recovery operation & not to mention the weather, get caught at one of these dirt strips & it rains cats & dogs, might as well take a shovel to it & bury it! All the feel good figures from a salesmen POV is from nice Rwy's in ideal ISA conditions:-) Used properly should be a good asset but doubt it will be doing too many of the propaganda runs:-)
Personally I only see the jet doing the long trips from major based dromes with better facilities also being supported by hospitals.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 02:39
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So which other jet do you see doing dirt/gravel in Australia? Seems pretty good to me.
Cobham operate their Bae146 jets on gravel all over the goldfields in WA.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 02:43
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Things must have changed!

I do not recall that categories but -

* The highest was depart now - I recall a case of this for a guy that his tent burnt down on him. But was very rare.
* Most common (after clinic runs) was communicate with the hospital/clinic and WAIT until word is given that the patient was stable, this was often car accidents. In many cases that case was many hours even days or cancelled.

Now if both jets wait to hear the patient is critical "but stable" before they depart who would provide care faster to say Derby?

Or will the Perth jet depart and wait 3 days at Derby for the patient to become stable or die? Then 4 crew stay an extra day as pilot duty time has been exceeded while on standby.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 03:19
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post

Which other places can take the jet, and don't have hospitals?


.
Argyle Airport is longer than the required 2930 ft (is 7546 ft) is asphalt (sealed)

The 520 man camp 185 km (by road) from nearest settlement has no hospital.

What would be the flight time from Broome to this Rio Tinto mine in a PC24?

* Edit to add Barrow Island and Telfer, Marble Bar also.

And not hard to put a few of these around the place say near roadhouses.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...20ac92bce72d20

Last edited by Bend alot; 7th Dec 2018 at 08:06.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 08:39
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If Western Australia has similar to this:-

https://www.aci.health.nsw.gov.au/__...Guidelines.pdf

Then burns patients are a time critical patient even in a major centre and require transfer to one of Australia's 13 burns units.

Stabilisation is checking for inhale burns (ex-ray) and you jump the que for this, followed by pain relief - shock takes long to settle in . Get to the burns unit ASAP.

Perth has two burns units and Darwin has one. I am sure Perth's are fine but I know Darwin's is great (Thanks Allison)

So for every time critical burns case, in North Western Australia a PC24 based in Broome is a good medical case for the jet to be based there.

I expect my early recollection of the guy burnt in the tent and "Go Now" was based on a similar policy to the NSW link supplied.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnenw0c42d...00005.jpg?dl=0

Lucky was a t shirt day.

Last edited by Bend alot; 7th Dec 2018 at 08:59.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 02:10
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Argyle Airport is longer than the required 2930 ft (is 7546 ft) is asphalt (sealed)
I'll pay that, but how many Perth/Darwin evacuations per year would come from that mine? Maybe one.

The burns cases would still have to initially go into the local hospital, or be evacuated by the PC-12, so the total time to get the patient to Perth or Darwin would still be about the same.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:17
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
I'll pay that, but how many Perth/Darwin evacuations per year would come from that mine? Maybe one.

The burns cases would still have to initially go into the local hospital, or be evacuated by the PC-12, so the total time to get the patient to Perth or Darwin would still be about the same.

I don't know but we do know the jet has been used in the north +70% of the use it has had to date.

Generally even when all crew are at a base (Jandakot or Broome) the time to be airborne is not a few minutes but from memory an hour or more. It is flight plans, fuels, and medical requirements and I assume that is patient details as may be relevant - maybe a blood type to sort or confirm. But it takes a bit of time.

** I expect an evac from such a mine to be small until it is big and front page.

So again it is the closest jet that will have the fastest response time.

For burns it seems a GO Now, that then would be the jet to any airport/town/strip that can accept it (not a PC12), but if a jet can not be first responder then yes a feeder PC12 would need to be used and a transfer to a jet considered. That will depend a lot on location and flight times and patient transfer time on ground and risk.

Did you not buy Barrow Island and Marble Bar? The town did swell during the races 10 fold.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 14:00
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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I think it pretty funny that the RFDS is making such a big deal about this jet and carrying on as if they haven't had a jet at their disposal ever. A quick google search of VH-RIO will show a Hawker 800, thats been operated on behalf of the RFDS by a private company for the best part of a decade, mainly doing runs throughout WA and even interstate transfers. By good authority, the PC-24 wont have the same coverage. The Hawker seems to be a better machine other than the loading, but the pilots do the majority of the grunt work in most cases.

So time will see how the new machine stacks up .... As for the Christmas and Cocos run ... FORGET IT!

So quickly the RFDS seem to forget what they have had and think this new machine will be the answer to their prayers, time will see .... The RFDS isn't the well oiled machine that it makes itself out to be.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 22:50
  #91 (permalink)  
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Watch out for the RFDS PR spin
I am interested in the new ways they are finding to waste my money.
FGD135....is it just me, or are you a little 'anti' RFDS?

Those extra 5-6 Broome houses and allowances would surely add up to near a million dollars per year.
Broome is the largest base outside of JT. Operationally, they actually provide more shifts than JT.

It is a modern, well equipped base, with the staff and infrastructure already in place.

As CS mentioned previously, the idea is for PC12's to feed Kimberley patients into Broome, with the PC24 ready to fly through to JT.
The current situation, with Meeka or Newman meets with southern crews is time consuming and inefficient. With these 'meets' often being cancelled, due to higher priority tasking elsewhere, the crews get stuck in Perth.
This causes a lack of resources in the north, and an accommodation expense for the crew.

The PC24 idea is great in principle, (in Broome and Jandakot), only time will tell whether it is a success or not.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 23:56
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
These jets will be capable of short landings and -----
Folks,
I note that all jets, indeed all aircraft, not just the PC-24, are capable of a short landing.
Don't ya just love PR.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 00:25
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You can land a Jumbo jet on a heli pad.....once:-) PR has it's place, it's their to get extra funding & it works:-)
I look Fwd to seeing the 24 around the traps for a sticky beak inside & of course hearing about the 24 in operation, all those dirt strips with wild life just waiting to play chicken with the jets:-)
Should make for some interesting reading this thread in the future:-)
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 01:23
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They do not need to be dirt strips for wild life the RFDS WA section lost 4 Garret TPE 331 engines in around a week on 3 aircraft. 2 were wildlife on 2 separate sealed strips. The other was a dirt strip at Cotton Creek in the Little Sandy Desert, the pilot was off the runway turning around (after rain) when the nose started to get bogged. Application of "much" more power gave the sensation of forward movement until the nose leg collapsed. This as you would be aware created a double propeller strike even ripping one gear box apart - now if this was say the jet, how many engines would need to be changed?

The same for the other 2 aircraft that hit wildlife, it is the propeller that caused the costly repairs.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 06:26
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As CS mentioned previously, the idea is for PC12's to feed Kimberley patients into Broome, with the PC24 ready to fly through to JT.
And the PC24 and crew has to be tied up at Broome waiting 3-5 hours for the patient to arrive? Why not spend those hours on getting the PC24 mobilised and up to Broome?

The Perth/Jandakot based PC24 would have completed this job 2.5 hours before the Broome-based aircraft. How is this efficient? And good value for that extra million dollars of taxpayers funding?
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 07:04
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And the PC24 and crew has to be tied up at Broome waiting 3-5 hours for the patient to arrive?
No, the crew are tasked with enough time to preflight, plan and load. All regional crews are on standby at home, there is no need to be tied up for 3-5 hours.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 07:58
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No, the crew are tasked with enough time to preflight, plan and load. All regional crews are on standby at home, there is no need to be tied up for 3-5 hours.
You're referring to pilot duty time. I wasn't. I was referring to the fact that, even though the Broome crew may not yet have been tasked, they and the aircraft have been allocated to the job. Those resources are thus tied up - thus somewhat defeating the purpose of having the jet.

That 3-5 hour preliminary tie up does not happen when the aircraft comes from Perth/Jandakot.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 08:35
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Am I missing something here?
Scenario...sick and injured need to be conveyed by PC24 from Broome to Perth. If jet leaves from JT, dead-leg is on the way up. If jet leaves from Broome, dead-leg is on the way home. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 11:58
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Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
Yes, you are missing something. You shouldn't be, because I have gone over it several times - see my post #65.

Again:

If a patient has to get from a non-major centre in the Kimberley to Perth, they will first have to be retrieved by the PC-12, then taken to a major centre from where the jet can operate. The time taken to get them to Perth will end up being about the same, irrespective of where the jet is based. This is the patient's point of view.

If the patient has to come from one of the major centres, then the time frame is not usually critical, as, in this case, the flight is merely a hospital-to-hospital transfer - not an "emergency evacuation".

So, what are the key differences between the Jandakot and Broome basing, given that the patient sees no change in the time taken to get him to his hospital?

1. The time to do a transfer is 2.5 hours longer when the jet is based in Broome (the idea of jets is to save time);
2. The taxpayer shells out a million dollars more, per year, to have a jet in Broome.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 23:47
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FDG135 - 3, except for 3 persons in the car roll over out of Derby that caught fire!

There are numerous cases and places where the jet base in Broome can be justified for even an extra $1M a year.

You do not want to except any of them, but I dare say if you had family up that way your position may change.

People up that way also pay tax and much of WA's revenue comes from royalties.

WA total tax 2017/18 - $8,466.3 (million) with 38.1% being payroll tax.
WA total royalties 2017/18 - $5,132.3 (million) and 88.2% being iron ore.

Remember Turia Pitt & Kate Sanderson.

"Royal Flying Doctors spokeswoman Joanne Hill said the two were flown to Darwin because the trip to Perth was too long.

"Ideally the two would have gone to Perth but we needed to stabilise them," she said"

The Daily Telegraph - can not post links
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