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RFDS Pilatus PC24

Old 4th Dec 2018, 02:27
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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4 houses in Port Headland would get you 5 in Broome for the same $'s or less. You would have a better chance attracting and retaining staff at Broome than the Port.
You also have to include medical staff into this equation. Whilst pilots will go and live anywhere if you show them photos of a flash jet, you can have a reasonable amount of difficulty finding Emergency Medicine Specialists to go and live in remote towns. Broome would be much easier to attract medical staff than just about any other town in the region. It also has much better airline connections.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 04:26
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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I don't work for the RFDS but I do know a few pilots based in Hedland and Broome (and Derby when that was the base) that do occasionally go to Darwin rather than Perth. Not sure who makes that decision but it can certainly happen. Having been based in Karratha, I would rather have the jet take an hour and a bit from Broome than 2 hours up from Jandakot if I was waiting for it. But that's just me.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:33
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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And isnít the last post the whole point - if you need an RFDS aircraft anywhere north of a line YPLM - YBAS, surely the jet would be better off coming from Broome rather than Jandakot.

I guess a similar sort of scenario would be the Challenger jets that Cobham operate for AMSA - they are spaced all around the country (Cairns, Essendon, Perth), which allows optimal coverage of the entire country. I would imagine this is the same logic the RFDS looked at for basing these jets in both Perth and Broome.

Also worth consideration is that the jet being based in Broome would also alow the RFDS to possibly cover Christmas and Cocos Islands direct.

Cheers
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 11:07
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hawk_eye View Post
And isnít the last post the whole point - if you need an RFDS aircraft anywhere north of a line YPLM - YBAS, surely the jet would be better off coming from Broome rather than Jandakot.

I guess a similar sort of scenario would be the Challenger jets that Cobham operate for AMSA - they are spaced all around the country (Cairns, Essendon, Perth), which allows optimal coverage of the entire country. I would imagine this is the same logic the RFDS looked at for basing these jets in both Perth and Broome.

Also worth consideration is that the jet being based in Broome would also alow the RFDS to possibly cover Christmas and Cocos Islands direct.

Cheers
Oh yes I recall the installation of the Omega systems for that. And the talk of shutting down an engine to buy time if needed.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 23:41
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... if you need an RFDS aircraft anywhere north of a line YPLM - YBAS, surely the jet would be better off coming from Broome rather than Jandakot.
It doesn't work that way.

If you have an accident somewhere other than one of the major centres (Broome, Derby, Wyndham or Kununurra) then it won't be the jet coming to get you. It will be the PC-12. If you then need to go to Perth or Darwin the PC-12 will fly you to one of the major centres, from where you will be transferred to the jet.

It takes hours for that PC-12 transfer to complete. During that time, the jet can be making its way up from Perth. In the end, it will have taken exactly the same amount of time to get you to your final destination. And if you had your accident in one of those major centres, you wouldn't be immediately transferred, anyway. You would go into the hospital at that centre for stabilisation - again taking hours.

If all the communities had airstrips that could take the jet, then it would be a different story. It appears only Balgo Hill has a strip capable of taking the jet - assuming the RFDS are intending to operate on gravel.

What about Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing? Both are sealed and are jet capable, but again, both of these places have their own hospitals. And the runways at these two places are a little on the short side, so jet operations may not be possible all year round. This also applies to Balgo Hill (the combination of high elevation and gravel would put the required takeoff distance outside of this jet's capabilities during the hot months, I imagine).

... cover Christmas and Cocos Islands direct.
Christmas probably, Cocos definitely not.

So, what is the advantage of basing the jet in Broome? What is the medical scenario that requires the jet speeds?

Last edited by FGD135; 5th Dec 2018 at 01:11.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 01:59
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Folks,
Maybe the name on the side of the first PC 24 is of significance.
I don't know much about RFDS WA financing, apart from being a regular small contributor in NSW Region, but I assume Rio is contributing.
What I do know is that many mining businesses in NW WA have requirements for the availability of 24/7 evacuation services, with a contracted minimum response time, which precluded Perth based crews and aircraft.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 02:20
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Post #55 LeadSled!

I recall seeing Rio in for $2,000,000 on the jet. That will be on top of the normal donations they give the RFDS yearly - I assume.

The government think it was Federal use to match RFDS donations $ for $.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 03:03
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Rio donated $10,000,000 to the overall fund to assist with the purchase of the PC24ís.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 03:09
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Just saw it go over. Wings bent back a bit, unlike those near-jets...
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 03:09
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Cheers Squark7700
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 05:16
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Oh yes I recall the installation of the Omega systems for that. And the talk of shutting down an engine to buy time if needed.
I thought omega was shut down years ago.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 05:27
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
It doesn't work that way.

If you have an accident somewhere other than one of the major centres (Broome, Derby, Wyndham or Kununurra) then it won't be the jet coming to get you. It will be the PC-12. If you then need to go to Perth or Darwin the PC-12 will fly you to one of the major centres, from where you will be transferred to the jet.

It takes hours for that PC-12 transfer to complete. During that time, the jet can be making its way up from Perth. In the end, it will have taken exactly the same amount of time to get you to your final destination. And if you had your accident in one of those major centres, you wouldn't be immediately transferred, anyway. You would go into the hospital at that centre for stabilisation - again taking hours.

If all the communities had airstrips that could take the jet, then it would be a different story. It appears only Balgo Hill has a strip capable of taking the jet - assuming the RFDS are intending to operate on gravel.

What about Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing? Both are sealed and are jet capable, but again, both of these places have their own hospitals. And the runways at these two places are a little on the short side, so jet operations may not be possible all year round. This also applies to Balgo Hill (the combination of high elevation and gravel would put the required takeoff distance outside of this jet's capabilities during the hot months, I imagine).

Christmas probably, Cocos definitely not.

So, what is the advantage of basing the jet in Broome? What is the medical scenario that requires the jet speeds?
I think you will find that the hospitals at Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek could be best describes as Clinics with acommodation. They do not have the facilities for major operations or severe intensive care.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 06:28
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by harrryw View Post
I thought omega was shut down years ago.
The RFDS WA installed Omega into the C441's to "find" Christmas and Cocos Islands in the mid 80's.

I expect that Omega lasted up until GPS was an option and not to many days after.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 06:50
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Last time I was at Halls Creek no auto fuels and was told the tanker will be a few days, many cars were parked up already.

Managed to get a tank of Avgas without to much getting on the tarmac - cost of Avgas (at Halls Creek), the call out, the payment surcharge and Admin fee. Made for the most expensive car fuel I have ever brought.

Got a warning not to tell others on the way out.

Fitzroy Crossing a rung or two below Hall's Creek.

Clinics with accommodation and caring staff, supplied with no tools (or fuel for the genset)
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 23:43
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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What I do know is that many mining businesses in NW WA have requirements for the availability of 24/7 evacuation services, with a contracted minimum response time, which precluded Perth based crews and aircraft.
You're talking about the Karratha-based Aspen Medical contract, which operate Citations. You're not talking about the RFDS. The only way a contract can have "minimum response times" is if the aircraft is dedicated to that particular contract, which is the case for this contract between Aspen and Chevron, Woodside, Santos, Shell, and a few others.

The RFDS aircraft are all available for "public" health use. Contracting a "minimum response time" in this case would be meaningless as the aircraft and crews may be tied up for days doing the "public" work. Irrespective of how much money Rio Tinto may have kicked in, I think you will find there is no such contracted "minimum response times" involving the Pilbara mines. How could such a contractual requirement be worded?

Those Pilbara minesites, by the way, are indeed closer to Broome than Perth, but by only about 35 minutes. Any special deal between the RFDS and Rio Tinto would be about the medical response, not whether the aircraft is jet powered. The quickest way to the Pilbara is via the 35 minute PC-12 from Port Hedland, or the 50 minute PC-12 from Meekatharra. The PC-24 from Broome would take about 55 minutes (90 minutes from Perth).

And taking the RFDS rostering and base-standby practices into account, it may be the Perth jet quickest on the scene, anyway. This is because for a large part of the day, some Perth pilots are at the airport, on standby, whereas for the remote bases they are at home and have 30-60 mins (?) to get to the airport.

The "Rio Tinto minesites minimum response times" theory just doesn't add up.

So, what is the point of the Broome basing? What can be achieved other than a bigger medical bill for the taxpayer?

Clinics with accommodation and caring staff, supplied with no tools (or fuel for the genset)
Going to some lengths to make Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing sound like backwater communities there, Bend alot. The reality is that those places have substantial hospitals, each with more than a dozen doctors. There is also a St John's Ambulance service in both towns. Any injuries, accidents or illnesses would first go to those hospitals for stabilisation.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 00:42
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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“Last year alone (2016), the RFDS flew over 1,100 patients to and from Broome, making it the busiest transport hub in the north of the state.

“20 ongoing jobs have been created to operate the base as a result of the project employing seven pilots, seven nurses, five doctors and a base administrator."



With (then) 7 pilots, I would expect that they actually have a start time to be at work and aircraft ready to go - but that's just a guess on my part.

Now what the RFDS are reported to say is :-

These jets will be capable of short landings and take offs on dirt and unsealed airstrips which is essential to emergency evacuations in many parts of Western Australia, including the Kimberley.

Additionally, with a greater internal space to accommodate three patients and quicker travel time, the PC24 will enable faster response times, increased capacity for carrying and treating multiple patients, and substantial operating efficiency gains.


So a point of the Broome basing (of a jet) is that it is the busiest base in the north of WA, it has an increased capacity 3 stretchers and will get to the patient faster.

https://thewest.com.au/news/regional...-ng-b88949509z
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 02:19
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
It doesn't work that way.

If you have an accident somewhere other than one of the major centres (Broome, Derby, Wyndham or Kununurra) then it won't be the jet coming to get you. It will be the PC-12. If you then need to go to Perth or Darwin the PC-12 will fly you to one of the major centres, from where you will be transferred to the jet.

It takes hours for that PC-12 transfer to complete. During that time, the jet can be making its way up from Perth. In the end, it will have taken exactly the same amount of time to get you to your final destination. And if you had your accident in one of those major centres, you wouldn't be immediately transferred, anyway. You would go into the hospital at that centre for stabilisation - again taking hours.

If all the communities had airstrips that could take the jet, then it would be a different story. It appears only Balgo Hill has a strip capable of taking the jet - assuming the RFDS are intending to operate on gravel.

What about Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing? Both are sealed and are jet capable, but again, both of these places have their own hospitals. And the runways at these two places are a little on the short side, so jet operations may not be possible all year round. This also applies to Balgo Hill (the combination of high elevation and gravel would put the required takeoff distance outside of this jet's capabilities during the hot months, I imagine).

Christmas probably, Cocos definitely not.

So, what is the advantage of basing the jet in Broome? What is the medical scenario that requires the jet speeds?
Well said FGD, most have no idea how it all works. Most accident cases that require evac are pre prepped so the jet would only be used when it's beneficial time wise, actually available & convenient, other than that it wont be doing much in the way of work to remote dirt strips as there are too many limitations. The 12's will still do the majority of the work, the Jet is a political thing as well but that's a whole other story!
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 05:00
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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We assume the RFDS may have used experience of using this jet (below) to base their decision on to put a jet in Broome.

evacuating 867 patients, the majority (73.9 per cent) from the more distant Kimberley and Pilbara regions.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa/...b5776943ea17b3

mactuk - FGD was assuming that the Broome base is an "on call", it seems with those staff numbers it might not be. While I will agree the new jet will be used selectively on a selected few unsealed runways, I don't agree it will only be used when beneficial time wise or convenient and it would be hard to use it when "unavailable".

With the introduction of the C441 (first turbine) into the WA fleet it was used if it could do the job, however during my time there they were only based in Jandakot - I don't know if that changed.

They will have a formula/policy for using the jet and several things need to be taken into account including number of patients and where the patients need to be taken.

It will be interesting to find out if the Perth Based or the Broome base jet is utilised more, on the above numbers I would put Broome as the favourite.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 06:34
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Unless times have changed since my time there, the percentage of critical must get to Perth asap / Med 1 is small.

With the centralisation of medical care in Perth (due to cost of machines that go bing) and the dearth of specialists in regional centres, all and sundry ended up in Perth. For a Kimberley based PC12, that means that the aircraft and crew probably can't make it back home at the end of the shift, meaning that the Meeka / Headland crew need to cover the Kimberley on the next shift....and the snowball gets bigger.

By fetching the patients from kickatinalong and blackstumpalong in the PC12, and bringing them to Broome, then the PC24 Broome crew can nip down to Perth and back and the BRM PC12 crew will be home in time for an early dinner. And of course it has the gravel approval for those times when needed when direct PH is preferable from kickatinalong.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 06:41
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
You're talking about the Karratha-based Aspen Medical contract, which operate Citations. You're not talking about the RFDS. .
FGD 135,
That is what I had in mind, as I made clear (or so I thought), I really had no knowledge of the details of the RFDS actual financial setup, I also thought it was clear that my two bob's worth was speculative.
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