Moorabbin Emergency
Now, that's really asking for trouble. Before the type was approved for training, presumably the aircraft was tested for its stall characteristics by a qualified test pilot - not just any Grade One flying instructor. If the prototype proved bad news at stalling, then the problem is picked up during its certification testing and rectified. ...
The FAA notes in their AC 61-67, Stall and Spin Awareness Training, that "Normal category airplanes are not approved for the performance of acrobatic maneuvers, including spins, and are placarded against intentional spins. However, to provide a margin of safety when recovery from a stall is delayed, normal category airplanes are tested during certification and must be able to recover from a one turn spin or a 3-second spin, whichever takes longer, in not more than one additional turn with the controls used in the manner normally used for recovery or demonstrate the airplane’s resistance to spins." LSA requirements are similar to FAR 23 normal category.
Worthwhile considering the meaning of this stuff:
- placarded against intentional spins .... to provide a margin of safety when recovery from a stall is delayed .... that is a significant statement
- Part 61 requires incipient spin training for an RPL but nowhere does CASA define an incipient spin .... personally, I'd take the FAA definition but just my opinion
- if an aircraft is placarded against intentional spins - is it approved for training of incipient spins?
If the rules (aka the syllabus of training designed by a flying school) require demonstration (for example) of competency at recovery from a wing drop at the point of stall, I have no problem with that; but do it on an aerobatic type certified and stressed for the job; not an aircraft that is designed and demonstrated to have benign stall characteristics.
The original flying instructors handbook published by the then Department of Civil Aviation warned that use of instant aileron to pick up a wing drop occurring at the point of stall could often cause the aircraft to enter an incipient spin. That point is still taught at some civilian flying schools 75 years later, where instructors still teach use of rudder to pick up a dropped wing. This is incorrect interpretation of the original advice.
I wonder how many schools and instructors do the required stall training exercises per Part 61?
Out of curiosity, why isn't the recovery from stalls induced from higher load factors during turns at low speeds taught? This appears to me as a situation that most pilots will more likely encounter than the usual clean and approach configuration stalls. That's especially true in some LSA where stalls require so much back pressure that you'd really wonder how anyone could get to that point without doing it willingly.
I suspect that doesn't always happen, particularly when instructors have come through a system where stalling has not been well taught and they go on to propagate their reticence to the next crop of instructors and the cycle continues and the effect spreads wider through the pilot community.
(I would also think that if a school operates an ab-initio aircraft that may have an out of the run of the mill trait when it stalls, handling or mitigating techniques/operating procedures for that should be taught. It sounds on a cursory read that this may well be what is being now implemented in the organisation discussed, which I think is a responsible action).
In the MOS, stalls need to be able to be recovered in straight and level flight, climbing, descending and turning.
Now try descending again with the intention of banking at the same time and it is likely to finish up in a steep spiral dive with ever increasing airspeed. Good way to exceed g limits and over stress the airframe.
OK I'll go along with a climbing turn stall and associated recovery action. But cannot see the point of a descending turning stall. Certainly not a requirement in jet transport simulators so why in a Cessna series singles or LSA?
Now try descending again with the intention of banking at the same time and it is likely to finish up in a steep spiral dive with ever increasing airspeed. Good way to exceed g limits and over stress the airframe.
OK I'll go along with a climbing turn stall and associated recovery action. But cannot see the point of a descending turning stall. Certainly not a requirement in jet transport simulators so why in a Cessna series singles or LSA?
OK I'll go along with a climbing turn stall and associated recovery action. But cannot see the point of a descending turning stall. Certainly not a requirement in jet transport simulators so why in a Cessna series singles or LSA?
In the exercise I try and set it up so the student needs to turn significantly and describe the situation as where they may feel nervous about banking the aircraft low to the ground so they start over ruddering. I then explain they are coming in short and try to 'stretch' the approach by pulling back until it stalls. If I get it right we are now set up in a pro-spin configuration or at least one that will encourage a stall that rotates and bites a bit. (Depends on aircraft to how easy this is to do). We then look at the altitude loss after recovering.
Obviously this done at altitude (we set an imaginary altitude for ground level). I want to encourage them to avoid unbalanced turns caused by ground-shyness, to recognise the control inputs that will cause the aircraft to bite and to show how an increase in stall speed in turns is typically discussed for level turns but it actually depends on G not necessarily angle of bank.
I suspect such a scenario explains a number of base turn stall spin accidents so want to encourage students to avoid falling into that trap.
Last edited by jonkster; 2nd Nov 2018 at 00:21.
I tend to teach it as an imagined scenario where the student is trying to turn onto final in a forced landing or in a PS&L in really low cloudbase. I describe the situation beforehand and how it will involve mishandling the controls and how this might happen in real life.
In the exercise I try and set it up so the student needs to turn significantly and describe the situation as where they may feel nervous about banking the aircraft low to the ground so they start over ruddering. I then explain they are coming in short and try to 'stretch' the approach by pulling back until it stalls. If I get it right we are now set up in a pro-spin configuration or at least one that will encourage a stall that rotates and bites a bit. (Depends on aircraft to how easy this is to do). We then look at the altitude loss after recovering.
Obviously this done at altitude (we set an imaginary altitude for ground level). I want to encourage them to avoid unbalanced turns caused by ground-shyness, to recognise the control inputs that will cause the aircraft to bite and to show how an increase in stall speed in turns is typically discussed for level turns but it actually depends on G not necessarily angle of bank.
I suspect such a scenario explains a number of base turn stall spin accidents so want to encourage students to avoid falling into that trap.
In the exercise I try and set it up so the student needs to turn significantly and describe the situation as where they may feel nervous about banking the aircraft low to the ground so they start over ruddering. I then explain they are coming in short and try to 'stretch' the approach by pulling back until it stalls. If I get it right we are now set up in a pro-spin configuration or at least one that will encourage a stall that rotates and bites a bit. (Depends on aircraft to how easy this is to do). We then look at the altitude loss after recovering.
Obviously this done at altitude (we set an imaginary altitude for ground level). I want to encourage them to avoid unbalanced turns caused by ground-shyness, to recognise the control inputs that will cause the aircraft to bite and to show how an increase in stall speed in turns is typically discussed for level turns but it actually depends on G not necessarily angle of bank.
I suspect such a scenario explains a number of base turn stall spin accidents so want to encourage students to avoid falling into that trap.
i was starting to think I was the only one doing this. The “traditional” methods are a waste of time
Rhsandlovingit. The gear cycle time I quoted was for that particular airframe VH-OWW. I timed it several times Feb 2016 in Qld at its former home to Soar. Something definitely wrong with that aircraft. I had to do 5 flights to finish a students MEA Class Rating Flight Test due to failures we experienced with the gear on this aircraft. Other P2006T aircraft may be better as you describe, they could hardly be worse I reckon!
fantastic!
i was starting to think I was the only one doing this.
i was starting to think I was the only one doing this.
never was taught recovery except from straight and level. Djpil had me do a stall and recovery from a climbing turn. scared the crap out of me doing it, but turned out to be a non event. So much isn’t taught.
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Seems to be popular to beat up on Soar but you're got to admit their marketing is years ahead of any other flying school in the country.
Something appears to have happened at Moorabbin this morning; a helicopter (not visible on FR24) was hovering around the south side of the airport for an hour from just after 9am to just after 10am. Multiple sirens heard early on.
VH-LCE (Tasfast air freight) took off at 10am; normal activity seems to have resumed about 10:15am.
At 10:30am the VicRoads traffic website still shows:
Traffic Alert
Emergency Incident
One lane closed both directions near Allandale Road as emergency crews respond to an incident. Allow extra time. Centre Dandenong Road an alternative between Boundary and Warrigal roads.Started: 03/12/2018 9:02am
Updated at: 03/12/2018 9:07am
VH-LCE (Tasfast air freight) took off at 10am; normal activity seems to have resumed about 10:15am.
At 10:30am the VicRoads traffic website still shows:
Lower Dandenong Road
Near: Mcswain Street , ParkdaleTraffic Alert
Emergency Incident
One lane closed both directions near Allandale Road as emergency crews respond to an incident. Allow extra time. Centre Dandenong Road an alternative between Boundary and Warrigal roads.Started: 03/12/2018 9:02am
Updated at: 03/12/2018 9:07am
Not an aviation incident; The Age reports:
https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...03-p50jsm.html
Firefighters rescue man stuck in drain in Mentone
"Crews received the call just after 8:30am this morning with more than 20 firefighters including aerial appliances being utilised,"https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...03-p50jsm.html
With reference to the 22 second gear time....
Scroll through to 5m15sec
I estimate 30 seconds for a gear cycle !
Ps climb rate of 300fpm with 2 Pob doesn’t sound amazing for this 4 seater and climbing to 3,000ft at 75 knots, she ain’t a rocket ship!
Scroll through to 5m15sec
I estimate 30 seconds for a gear cycle !
Ps climb rate of 300fpm with 2 Pob doesn’t sound amazing for this 4 seater and climbing to 3,000ft at 75 knots, she ain’t a rocket ship!
Re post #34 video. If you note the pilots call out for gear up the video is at 5:17. When the last main gear is visibly fully retracted the video time is 5:37. So 20 secs give or take a couple to make the micro switches and close the cycle. My own estimate was 22 sec as personally timed whilst I was flying VH-OWW on several occasions.
