Fatal accident Loss of all four engines due fuel exhaustion
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Fatal accident Loss of all four engines due fuel exhaustion
Errrrmmmm....
The Captain requested that maximum fuel (9,300kg) should be loaded whereas the Investigation found that the minimum fuel required to conduct the flight non-stop would have been 12,052kg, approximately 3 tonnes more than the maximum possible fuel load. An initial statement by an unspecified survivor was noted as including that the aircraft would make a refuelling stop at Cobija, a Bolivian airport en route and close to the Brazilian border but this airport only stays open at night by arrangement and on this evening, it had closed 25 minutes after the accident aircraft took off.
I think there may be another thread where the importance of always keeping your final reserve intact was mentioned LB. However several posters still think it's OK to use it as a range extender instead. I am sure that when things went quite on this flight the crew and passengers may have regretted putting Expediancy and commercial pressure before safety. As a wise flying legend once told me, if there is any doubt about having enough fuel for the trip, there is no doubt .Stop enroute and get some more .it's not your fault the aeroplane hasn't got the legs for the trip. But it is your fault if you haven't got enough fuel on board when you arrive at your destination .
Yes don. Those of us who are suggesting it may be safer to make a well-informed decision to consume 10 minutes of fixed reserve to make your planned destination rather than conduct a precautionary landing in a field are thereby advocating departing with 25% less fuel than is required for the flight and pressing on when fuel exhaustion is certain. Yep, that’s what we’re advocating. 
I think the well informed decision would be if in any doubt when planning or enroute, stop and get get fuel rather than just push on and use that reserve fuel as a range extender. Or use another aeroplane that better suits the mission.
Another entry for my Big Book Of Aviation Wisdom Learned Only From Reading PPRuNe. Thanks don.
Yes don. Those of us who are suggesting it may be safer to make a well-informed decision to consume 10 minutes of fixed reserve to make your planned destination rather than conduct a precautionary landing in a field are thereby advocating departing with 25% less fuel than is required for the flight and pressing on when fuel exhaustion is certain. Yep, that’s what we’re advocating.
I recall this flight was not even a safe departure - if it were then we would not be talking about it!
On-board reserves are for inflight changes, this aircraft used all its changes + several miles before it took off.
Either a better aircraft type or a better charter company would have had a different result - this outfit used fuel reserve as required fuel and that seemed intentional.
And at some stage this accident pilot, and those that use reserve fuel to extend range, all sit at the controls knowing they haven't got enough fuel to legally continue . Yet they all do. But it's better if that happens towards the end of the flight and not the beginning.
It seems I am part of the minority that does not agree with this.
It seems I am part of the minority that does not agree with this.
donpizmeov and LB, I think you're both slightly misunderstanding each other, LB is describing a situation where he has 10mins to go to destination at Reserves and elects to continue whilst donpizmeov is suggesting a scenario where there is a suitable airport below and you continue regardless. I'd say you're both correct because you're both describing different situations?
I'd say you'd both agree that with a suitable airport directly below you'd be silly to take the additional risk than take the extra 30mins to stop in for fuel and be sure and that with a suitable destination only being 10mins away at reserves it'd be silly to take the risk on a random field below no matter how lovely and short the grass looks from above.
I'd say you'd both agree that with a suitable airport directly below you'd be silly to take the additional risk than take the extra 30mins to stop in for fuel and be sure and that with a suitable destination only being 10mins away at reserves it'd be silly to take the risk on a random field below no matter how lovely and short the grass looks from above.
I'd say you'd both agree that with a suitable airport directly below you'd be silly to take the additional risk than take the extra 30mins to stop in for fuel and be sure and that with a suitable destination only being 10mins away at reserves it'd be silly to take the risk on a random field below no matter how lovely and short the grass looks from above.
And even in terms of landing in a field- it's better to do so with fuel on board than have to land at the end of the glide- so how close do you cut it?
Ixixly, how do you get 10min short of a destination and only then find out you are short of fuel? What have you been doing about fuel management for the rest of the flight? if fuel management and planning is such a challenge, what happens if as Wiz asked it's only 15min or 20min into the reserve?
final reserve is exactly as it says on the tin .it's your final reserve and should not be touched unless something extraordinary happens . It's not contingency fuel which can be burnt for weather deviation, stronger winds etc. If your aeroplane hasn't got the legs for the trip, plan a stop enroute or find an aeroplane that can make it .
Knowing to the litre how much fuel you have (as mentioned by someone earlier) means your decision to stop should be made earlier rather than deliberately continue and land below your final reserve fuel .
final reserve is exactly as it says on the tin .it's your final reserve and should not be touched unless something extraordinary happens . It's not contingency fuel which can be burnt for weather deviation, stronger winds etc. If your aeroplane hasn't got the legs for the trip, plan a stop enroute or find an aeroplane that can make it .
Knowing to the litre how much fuel you have (as mentioned by someone earlier) means your decision to stop should be made earlier rather than deliberately continue and land below your final reserve fuel .
best argument yet Don. Very good point. What I still find disconcerting is the mandatory fuel mayday call when there is nothing ATC can do and all you are doing is triggering a CASA investigation.
And at some stage this accident pilot, and those that use reserve fuel to extend range, all sit at the controls knowing they haven't got enough fuel to legally continue . Yet they all do. But it's better if that happens towards the end of the flight and not the beginning.
It seems I am part of the minority that does not agree with this.
It seems I am part of the minority that does not agree with this.
Not interested at this point in your personal opinions about airmanship or your personal opinions about what constitutes circumstances sufficiently extraordinary to justify consuming some of the planned FFR.
Just cite the Australian law that says I can’t “legally continue”.
[F]inal reserve is exactly as it says on the tin. [I]t's your final reserve and should not be touched unless something extraordinary happens.
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 25th Jun 2018 at 23:43.
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Could you cite the law that I break if I decide to consume 10 minutes of my planned fixed final reserve?
As with don, I’m not interested at this point in what you think.
Cite the regulation.
Cite the regulation.
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How about CASA 29/18 — Civil Aviation (Fuel Requirements) Instrument 2018
(3) If, as a result of an in-flight fuel quantity check in accordance with subsection 6 (2), the usable fuel expected to be remaining on arrival at the destination aerodrome is less than the fixed fuel reserve (where no alternate aerodrome is required), then the pilot in command must take appropriate action and proceed to an en-route alternate so as to perform a safe landing with not less than the fixed fuel reserve remaining.
(5) The pilot in command must declare a situation of emergency fuel when the calculated usable fuel predicted to be available upon landing at the nearest aerodrome where a safe landing can be made is less than the fixed fuel reserve for the flight. The pilot in command must declare an emergency fuel state by broadcasting MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY FUEL.Table 1 — Fixed fuel reserve and variable fuel reserve requirements
Item
Column 1
Aircraft
Column 2
Flight rules
Column 3
Fixed fuel reserve
Column 4
Variable fuel reserve
Other than RPT and charter
1
Small aeroplane (piston or turboprop)
Day V.F.R.
30 minutes
N/A
2
Small aeroplane (piston or turboprop)
I.F.R. or night V.F.R.
45 minutes
N/A
3
Turbojet or large aeroplane (turboprop)
I.F.R. or V.F.R.
30 minutes
5%
4
Large aeroplane (piston)
I.F.R. or V.F.R.
45 minutes
5%
Not hard to find
(3) If, as a result of an in-flight fuel quantity check in accordance with subsection 6 (2), the usable fuel expected to be remaining on arrival at the destination aerodrome is less than the fixed fuel reserve (where no alternate aerodrome is required), then the pilot in command must take appropriate action and proceed to an en-route alternate so as to perform a safe landing with not less than the fixed fuel reserve remaining.
(5) The pilot in command must declare a situation of emergency fuel when the calculated usable fuel predicted to be available upon landing at the nearest aerodrome where a safe landing can be made is less than the fixed fuel reserve for the flight. The pilot in command must declare an emergency fuel state by broadcasting MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY FUEL.Table 1 — Fixed fuel reserve and variable fuel reserve requirements
Item
Column 1
Aircraft
Column 2
Flight rules
Column 3
Fixed fuel reserve
Column 4
Variable fuel reserve
Other than RPT and charter
1
Small aeroplane (piston or turboprop)
Day V.F.R.
30 minutes
N/A
2
Small aeroplane (piston or turboprop)
I.F.R. or night V.F.R.
45 minutes
N/A
3
Turbojet or large aeroplane (turboprop)
I.F.R. or V.F.R.
30 minutes
5%
4
Large aeroplane (piston)
I.F.R. or V.F.R.
45 minutes
5%
Not hard to find
That instrument hasn’t commenced yet, Andrew. That instrument hasn’t commenced yet, because the Civil Aviation Amendment (Fuel and Oil Requirements) Regulations 2018 haven’t commenced yet.
Not hard to read.
The effects of the instrument are the subject of ongoing discussion. I’ll bet folding money that it’s amended before it comes into force in November.
Cite the Australian law that I break, today, in the scenario I gave.
Not hard to read.
The effects of the instrument are the subject of ongoing discussion. I’ll bet folding money that it’s amended before it comes into force in November.
Cite the Australian law that I break, today, in the scenario I gave.
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Forgive me, I thought the fuel debate was about CASA's proposed changes.
The fact that the instrument is part of current legislation and is just waiting for the trigger before it comes into force seems like a good indication of CASA's intentions.
Is there a point to debating current rules that are planned to be replaced instead of the proposed new rules?
The fact that the instrument is part of current legislation and is just waiting for the trigger before it comes into force seems like a good indication of CASA's intentions.
Is there a point to debating current rules that are planned to be replaced instead of the proposed new rules?
Of course there’s a point. It might be that it dawns on CASA that its intentions have unintended consequences, and CASA might move to change the intrument before it comes into force.
Assume this scenario:
You’re flying from YBHI to YTIB day VFR small aeroplane, no alternate required. You plan to carry, and triple check that you’re carrying, 35 minutes’ FFR. At the point of no return to YBHI your fuel calculations indicate that you will arrive overhead YTIB with 31 minutes’ FFR, and you continue. You conduct a further in-flight fuel quantity check and, as a consequence, you expect to arrive overhead YTIB with only 29 minutes’ FFR.
How do you comply with this rule:
[Note to the drafters: The word “then” in your instrument is redundant.]
Again: I’m not interested in anyone’s personal opinion about the circumstances in which you found yourself with 29 minutes’ FFR remaining. Just tell me how you would comply with that rule, if it came into force.
Assume this scenario:
You’re flying from YBHI to YTIB day VFR small aeroplane, no alternate required. You plan to carry, and triple check that you’re carrying, 35 minutes’ FFR. At the point of no return to YBHI your fuel calculations indicate that you will arrive overhead YTIB with 31 minutes’ FFR, and you continue. You conduct a further in-flight fuel quantity check and, as a consequence, you expect to arrive overhead YTIB with only 29 minutes’ FFR.
How do you comply with this rule:
If, as a result of an in-flight fuel quantity check ... the usable fuel expected to be remaining on arrival at the destination aerodrome is less than the fixed fuel reserve (where no alternate aerodrome is required), the pilot in command must take appropriate action and proceed to an en-route alternate so as to perform a safe landing with not less than the fixed fuel reserve remaining.
Again: I’m not interested in anyone’s personal opinion about the circumstances in which you found yourself with 29 minutes’ FFR remaining. Just tell me how you would comply with that rule, if it came into force.