More Knots over the fence for Mum and the kids
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More Knots over the fence for Mum and the kids
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/900.pdf
In the airline industry it is rare to see pilots fine tuning their airspeed to arrive at the flare right on VREF (conditions being appropriate of course). It is a good bet that mostly their speeds are padded on purpose; or just plain "sloppy" because of long runways and near enough is good enough. Applies to general aviation types as well; hence in this Forum
In the airline industry it is rare to see pilots fine tuning their airspeed to arrive at the flare right on VREF (conditions being appropriate of course). It is a good bet that mostly their speeds are padded on purpose; or just plain "sloppy" because of long runways and near enough is good enough. Applies to general aviation types as well; hence in this Forum
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because of long runways and near enough is good enough. Applies to general aviation types as well;
As indeed were all who did the same.Not all of them were/are steep!
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Some 60-65% of accidents are related to approach and landing.
It is not uncommon to add a few knots for Mum and the Kids, but the result is not always what we want. Some actually think it may be 'safer'. In larger a/c it is common to have a max bug speed of Vref + x, which in my experience is often 15kts. To add 15 kts in adverse conditions in a light a/c is I suggest asking for trouble. In adverse conditions such as involving wind then gusts should be considered, but one rule of thumb is half the gust factor up to the placarded Max add on. If not in the AFM then perhaps 10% of Vref may be a suitable add on. In a s/e Cessna for example that might only mean 6 or 8 kts which if greater extends your float and hope distance with the associated risks, such as forcing a touch down or running out of runway. A suitable touch down point should always be selected for every approach regardless of the a/c type. There are always other factors which may have to be considered, but at a particular speed for any a/c it starts to get dangerous. The accident reports show that.
It is not uncommon to add a few knots for Mum and the Kids, but the result is not always what we want. Some actually think it may be 'safer'. In larger a/c it is common to have a max bug speed of Vref + x, which in my experience is often 15kts. To add 15 kts in adverse conditions in a light a/c is I suggest asking for trouble. In adverse conditions such as involving wind then gusts should be considered, but one rule of thumb is half the gust factor up to the placarded Max add on. If not in the AFM then perhaps 10% of Vref may be a suitable add on. In a s/e Cessna for example that might only mean 6 or 8 kts which if greater extends your float and hope distance with the associated risks, such as forcing a touch down or running out of runway. A suitable touch down point should always be selected for every approach regardless of the a/c type. There are always other factors which may have to be considered, but at a particular speed for any a/c it starts to get dangerous. The accident reports show that.
I learned the hard way what "adding a few knots" will get you. I also know there is another lesson: "subtracting a few knots" that I would rather learn from someone else’s misfortune.
Then there is that old saw, 'Better to run off the end of the runway at 20 knots than crash short at 120'.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 28th May 2018 at 02:50.
How much is too much and /or too little.?
Locally there has been a spate of incidents in the training regime...coming in high...and fast.
No 'aiming point' either...anywhere on the runway will suffice.
Float... bounce.. float... bounce.. float.. nose down collapse, ding, scrape, cloud of dust and a bent aeroplane
Not a good look...see how dangerous light aircraft are !
We've joked about painting some more keys 1/2 way up the strip for those that miss/ignore the first lot.!
Locally there has been a spate of incidents in the training regime...coming in high...and fast.
No 'aiming point' either...anywhere on the runway will suffice.
Float... bounce.. float... bounce.. float.. nose down collapse, ding, scrape, cloud of dust and a bent aeroplane
Not a good look...see how dangerous light aircraft are !
We've joked about painting some more keys 1/2 way up the strip for those that miss/ignore the first lot.!
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/900.pdf
In the airline industry it is rare to see pilots fine tuning their airspeed to arrive at the flare right on VREF (conditions being appropriate of course). It is a good bet that mostly their speeds are padded on purpose; or just plain "sloppy" because of long runways and near enough is good enough. Applies to general aviation types as well; hence in this Forum
In the airline industry it is rare to see pilots fine tuning their airspeed to arrive at the flare right on VREF (conditions being appropriate of course). It is a good bet that mostly their speeds are padded on purpose; or just plain "sloppy" because of long runways and near enough is good enough. Applies to general aviation types as well; hence in this Forum
V Ref is a 50' threshold crossing speed not the speed you'd be starting the flare. In my experience near enough is most certainly not good enough when it come to airline flying.
The difference between the speed at 50 feet (VREF) and speed 3 seconds later at start of flare is hardly measurable.
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Vref at 50 feet is all well and good but not all Vrefs are created equal. If your aircraft has a trend indicator or a speed tape then you’re lucky but even a round dial will tell a story. If you’re briefly passing through Vref with speed rapidly decaying you’re asking for trouble. Vref at 50 all the way down to round out won’t hurt.
What is scary is to watch airliners disregard 50’ HAT and land on the start of the runway all to make the first taxiway...
If I hadn’t seen this multiple times with my own eyes I would not believe it!
If I hadn’t seen this multiple times with my own eyes I would not believe it!
FDAP/FOQA should pick that kind of thing up, it certainly does where I work.
Originally Posted by Global Aviator
What is scary is to watch airliners disregard 50’ HAT and land on the start of the runway all to make the first taxiway...
If I hadn’t seen this multiple times with my own eyes I would not believe it!
If I hadn’t seen this multiple times with my own eyes I would not believe it!
At no point did I say Australia.......
As I said I too would be a non believer if I had not seen it with my own eyes more than once...
Have a look at Medan airport... a certain red coloured operator... As for FDAP yep it would certainly capture so NFI how they do it and get away with it. What is even worse is when they do it and still miss the first exit, which by the way is not high speed as it’s a 145 deg left turn... using the high speed exit for landing the other way.
Last medical 20/20 vision so I think I know what I’ve seen. If I ever see it again I’ll get a pic, first time I was too busy going holy ****e thinking I’m very uncomfortable at the holding point, second time thinking nah that would never happen again....
These are reasons why there are so many over runs side runs short runs in this part of the world I’m sure.
As for adding a few knots, explain that to the inquiry if you bend it...
As I said I too would be a non believer if I had not seen it with my own eyes more than once...
Have a look at Medan airport... a certain red coloured operator... As for FDAP yep it would certainly capture so NFI how they do it and get away with it. What is even worse is when they do it and still miss the first exit, which by the way is not high speed as it’s a 145 deg left turn... using the high speed exit for landing the other way.
Last medical 20/20 vision so I think I know what I’ve seen. If I ever see it again I’ll get a pic, first time I was too busy going holy ****e thinking I’m very uncomfortable at the holding point, second time thinking nah that would never happen again....
These are reasons why there are so many over runs side runs short runs in this part of the world I’m sure.
As for adding a few knots, explain that to the inquiry if you bend it...
