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Plane crash at Orange Airport

Old 17th May 2018, 16:45
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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@ Leadsled

Sure, night is higher risk than day

Twin can be safer than single. Certainly if failure when established in the circuit. Twin may not be much better if one fails at or immediately after take off.

Have to wait and see what happened here. Single failure immediately after take-off? - twin may (or may not) have helped. Other failure? - twin would probably not have helped. Loss of orientation and CFIT? - twin would not have helped.
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Old 17th May 2018, 21:20
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and I see it was a New Moon on the night of the 15th ....
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Old 17th May 2018, 23:01
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Flying at night is one thing. Practising emergencies and abnormal operations at night is another.

I hadn’t realised CASA had dealt with a perceived risk by mandating more risk. Well done 61!
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Old 17th May 2018, 23:53
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Flying in any type of aircraft is not without its dangers. So no point singling out night single-engine ops.
Be it a single/twin, night/day, VFR/IFR or a jet at 35,000', hitting the ground or water in an uncontrolled state is going to hurt!
Let's not get carried away!
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Old 18th May 2018, 00:46
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LS. Please post the number of twin and single night crashes including noting if CPL, PPL, IFR versus NVFR ratings from the last 10 years to demonstrate your point. Otherwise it's moot.
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Old 18th May 2018, 00:52
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Leadsled:
"We have on the books some very serious/fatal accidents during training at night, that probably would have been less serious/wouldn't have happened at all, in daylight --- think Metro at Tamworth, light twin at Camden, just for two."

I call BS on your statement.

We also have an Embraer at Darwin Airport, 2010, and a Conquest at Renmark 12 months ago - both in broad daylight.

The aircraft doesn't know if it is day or night. You may describe this as a "glib statement" but it is a fact.
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Old 18th May 2018, 01:04
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So forced landing practise at night would be no riskier than forced landing practise during the day? EFATO practise?
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Old 18th May 2018, 02:49
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Square 7700

the one that comes to mind is the metro at Tamworth doing EFATO .
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Old 18th May 2018, 03:06
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
Folks,

We have on the books some very serious/fatal accidents during training at night, that probably would have been less serious/wouldn't have happened at all, in daylight --- think Metro at Tamworth, light twin at Camden, just for two.
Hi Leaddie

Try 29 May 1989, C210 FMW at Alice Springs

That wouldn't have happened in daylight either
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Old 18th May 2018, 03:18
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Originally Posted by outnabout View Post

The aircraft doesn't know if it is day or night. You may describe this as a "glib statement" but it is a fact.
The aircraft doesn’t but the pilots do! Aircraft also doesn’t know where the ground is.
Having done quite a bit of night instructing I see flight reviews to keep a night rating as overkill and an increase in overall risk for little gain. (And expensive)

Last edited by Tankengine; 18th May 2018 at 07:00.
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Old 18th May 2018, 03:24
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
Whether you like it or not, flying a training/checking ride at night adds an extra element of risk ---- simple fact.
This is why legitimate airlines will not conduct asymmetric or a number of other exercises in non-normal configuration at night, outside a simulator.
We have on the books some very serious/fatal accidents during training at night, that probably would have been less serious/wouldn't have happened at all, in daylight --- think Metro at Tamworth, light twin at Camden, just for two.
Glib statements like "the aeroplane doesn't know it night" do no more than reveal a distinct lack of understanding of risk management --- but we know there are no shortages of smart -a ---s (alecks) in aviation.
So your opinion is that you should not undergo recurrent checks to validate your competency on a rating that you hold? Extending that somewhat, why bother performing a CIR renewal in actual IMC? Afterall, it is less risky to do it in day-VMC, isn't it? Actually, why not do all training in Day-VMC? The fundamental issue in most of these accidents seems to be overconfidence by the checker, in that he is unable/unwilling to correct a trainees mistake resulting in a CFIT prang. Many times over. Not necessarily when they happen. Of course it is easier to see a situation going pear-shaped during the day, but if you cannot detect the same scenario at night, then you have no business conducting the renewal...The trainee deserves better,

It's all well and good to say that 'proper' operators and the airlines will use a sim for riskier operations, and that is a valid claim when a suitable simulator is available...Most times, for GA anyway, this is simply not the case. That is the unfortunate reality, whether or not it is liked.
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Old 18th May 2018, 03:37
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Some of you blokes need to get a reality check. Of course flying at night has more risk than day, but only slightly and mainly if the aircraft should suffer an engine failure (a rare event in a certified GA aircraft ) or due to spacial disorientation. The key to most of the risk minimization IMHO is currency on type. I have seen a 747 captain with 1000's hrs experiance nearly crash a C172 on landing by flaring way too high and wash his airspeed off because he was not current on type. How do we know if the Orange crash was not due to simular? There is a risk in all flying be it very small. What do you blokes want? A rule that prohibits all flying unless the aircraft has 4 jet engines, 4 aircrew and capable of auto land at all airports. Better make it freight only too far to risky for passengers.
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Old 18th May 2018, 04:20
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How do we know if the Orange crash was not due to simular?
Thats an easy one to answer... because you don't flare a Cirrus to land it!
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Old 18th May 2018, 06:10
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Originally Posted by Tankengine View Post
The aircraft doesnít [know itís night] but the pilots do! Aircraft also doesnít know where the ground is.
Having done quite a bit of night instructing I see flight reviews to keep a night rating as overkill and an increase in overall risk for little gain. (And exspensive)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

Nobody is saying donít practise.

Just donít practise in circumstances in which the gain is not justified by the increased risk.
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Old 18th May 2018, 06:16
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Is night currency required in the USA?
If not, one wonders why its not raining aluminium over there given CAsA's insistence its a "Safety" issue.
Never really seen the point of a high end corporate jet jockey
having to front his local flying school to do his mandatory three
circuits in a C150 because their out of Australian night currency.
Easy for the mainlines I guess "Bloggs shoot down to the sim and do three night circuits will you".
For a GA operator of a high end global thats a very expensive exercise in the aircraft.
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Old 18th May 2018, 07:09
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Originally Posted by thorn bird View Post
Is night currency required in the USA?
If not, one wonders why its not raining aluminium over there given CAsA's insistence its a "Safety" issue.
Never really seen the point of a high end corporate jet jockey
having to front his local flying school to do his mandatory three
circuits in a C150 because their out of Australian night currency.
Easy for the mainlines I guess "Bloggs shoot down to the sim and do three night circuits will you".
For a GA operator of a high end global thats a very expensive exercise in the aircraft.
Said corporate jet jockey is authorised to perform operations under the NVFR so long as his MECIR renewal is current. CAsA sez so. Why go renew your NVFR currency when your CIR authorises it anyway unless you plan on letting your CIR lapse?
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Old 18th May 2018, 08:24
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Originally Posted by thorn bird View Post
Is night currency required in the USA?
If not, one wonders why its not raining aluminium over there given CAsA's insistence its a "Safety" issue.
Never really seen the point of a high end corporate jet jockey
having to front his local flying school to do his mandatory three
circuits in a C150 because their out of Australian night currency.
Easy for the mainlines I guess "Bloggs shoot down to the sim and do three night circuits will you".
For a GA operator of a high end global thats a very expensive exercise in the aircraft.
FAA requirements here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.57

The FAA only require night proficiency for passenger carrying but it is only 3 takeoff and landings in the last 90 days. No passengers no requirement.

Also have a read of the requirements to keep an instrument rating current over there. If you fly regularly no need for an IPC... They must have carnage in the skies...
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Old 18th May 2018, 08:35
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KRa you are incorrect. Said jet jockey must have night currency as well as current MECIR - three night takeoffs and landings if to carry pax otherwise one of each.
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Old 18th May 2018, 08:44
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Originally Posted by On eyre View Post
KRa you are incorrect. Said jet jockey must have night currency as well as current MECIR - three night takeoffs and landings if to carry pax otherwise one of each.
I think you will find that is only if you are exercising the privilege of the NVFR rating. If you are conducting ops under the NVFR by virtue of your CIR the requirements of Part 61.965 do not apply.
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Old 18th May 2018, 09:25
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post


Thats an easy one to answer... because you don't flare a Cirrus to land it!
Ah... you mean in the tail wheel Cirrus?
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