20nm CTAF Dumped
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From my experience half or more of the VHF radios out there would struggle to transmit / receive over a distance of 40 miles, let alone an aircraft on the ground picking up an inbound call.
You'd have to make another at 10 just to be heard.
You'd have to make another at 10 just to be heard.
With up to six aircraft being given as traffic sounds to me as if a lot of time in the cockpit would be heads down attempting to write down all of those call signs and to try and work out which is relevant traffic.
If it’s heads down it’s clearly less looking out!
If it’s heads down it’s clearly less looking out!
Were there ever no-radio aircraft in AFIZs, back in the day?
Traffic. So let’s say it’s a typical monsoon day with lots of IMC conditions.
Don’t the pilots then have to self arrange using radio in relation to relevant traffic? What is relevant traffic? Is there a prescribed standard? When two aircraft start arranging separation doesn’t that clog up the frequency?
Sound a bit like a 1950s system to me.
Don’t the pilots then have to self arrange using radio in relation to relevant traffic? What is relevant traffic? Is there a prescribed standard? When two aircraft start arranging separation doesn’t that clog up the frequency?
Sound a bit like a 1950s system to me.
CASA is now looking at mandating ADSB for all VFR yet they haven’t said anything about recommending to AsA to provide
a control service in the terminal area for aircraft in IMC at places like Ayers Rock where our industry has paid for a ground station so Airservices controllers get 10 metre accuracy positions to ground level.
They could use the existing high level en route controller as they do in the USA and Canada to provide the service at no cost increase to the industry.
Then again CASA gives its number one consideration to safety so don’t worry!
a control service in the terminal area for aircraft in IMC at places like Ayers Rock where our industry has paid for a ground station so Airservices controllers get 10 metre accuracy positions to ground level.
They could use the existing high level en route controller as they do in the USA and Canada to provide the service at no cost increase to the industry.
Then again CASA gives its number one consideration to safety so don’t worry!
Last edited by Dick Smith; 10th Feb 2018 at 03:35.
Lead. No one could possibly know if non radio aircraft were present unless they were sighted .A friend once flew up the coast to Brisbane at low level VFR without calling the AFIS at Lismore or somewhere nearby. When he landed at Archerfield he was asked to call Brisbane FS and explain his lapse
It was taken very seriously. They knew when he left Coffs Harbour so were waiting for him to call on the AFIS frequency just before crossing the border. Those were the days. Far safer of course!
Vag. They have made an announcement. I bet you can find it on by googling.
It was taken very seriously. They knew when he left Coffs Harbour so were waiting for him to call on the AFIS frequency just before crossing the border. Those were the days. Far safer of course!
Vag. They have made an announcement. I bet you can find it on by googling.
Hi 'LB', they were to ring 'Region' prior to, and 'make arrangements' = 'get approval' from 'Region'.
Generally, they would be given a 'quiet time' ETA to arrive, and where possible, we would keep a lookout for them and advise other traffic accordingly.
Unlike at ATC locations, we did not have the 'flashing light' lamp.
= no 'authority' to say 'clear to land'....no!no! not ever.
Or, they would come on in and at the Briefing Counter say something like, ooops sorry chaps, the bloody thing just failed - do you know where I can get it fixed.....
Heard that at one time.....
Cheers
Generally, they would be given a 'quiet time' ETA to arrive, and where possible, we would keep a lookout for them and advise other traffic accordingly.
Unlike at ATC locations, we did not have the 'flashing light' lamp.
= no 'authority' to say 'clear to land'....no!no! not ever.
Or, they would come on in and at the Briefing Counter say something like, ooops sorry chaps, the bloody thing just failed - do you know where I can get it fixed.....
Heard that at one time.....
Cheers
Dick, when I was doing charters out of Kal, and FSO'ing as well, I often got, and gave, traffic 'numeri'.
The mining industry was 'big' then, = lots of aircraft going which/that way.
I used to jot down the callsigns only, and 'imagine' in my mind where they were in relation to me.
'Get the picture' so to speak.
If they were 'well in front, and expected to be on the ground or 'gone' before I posed a potential conflict, I simply kept an 'ear open' for their next call.
If I was going to overtake a slower aircraft, I would sight him/her and call that I was.
If I heard the FK.28 right up my clacker, I got out of his way very quickly, usually by descending, at one time to 500AGL, 'cause he doesn't.
T'ain't really 'rocket science', and its 'heads up' all the way, usually with some 'humour' on the R/T - we all knew each other, sort of, and 'common sense' (Airmanship....Dare I say it??) prevailed..
Anyway, regardless of what 'they' do now, it worked then and I'm still alive....
All of these 'problems - must be a 'modern generation' thing......
Sorry to be so 'obvious' to all, but you did ask....
Cheers
And, thanks again.......
The mining industry was 'big' then, = lots of aircraft going which/that way.
I used to jot down the callsigns only, and 'imagine' in my mind where they were in relation to me.
'Get the picture' so to speak.
If they were 'well in front, and expected to be on the ground or 'gone' before I posed a potential conflict, I simply kept an 'ear open' for their next call.
If I was going to overtake a slower aircraft, I would sight him/her and call that I was.
If I heard the FK.28 right up my clacker, I got out of his way very quickly, usually by descending, at one time to 500AGL, 'cause he doesn't.
T'ain't really 'rocket science', and its 'heads up' all the way, usually with some 'humour' on the R/T - we all knew each other, sort of, and 'common sense' (Airmanship....Dare I say it??) prevailed..
Anyway, regardless of what 'they' do now, it worked then and I'm still alive....
All of these 'problems - must be a 'modern generation' thing......
Sorry to be so 'obvious' to all, but you did ask....
Cheers
And, thanks again.......
Yep, there were no radio (and wrong frequency) aircraft tootling around.
Yet it didn’t rain aluminium.
Yet it didn’t rain aluminium.
Smith
If you have the evidence, post the link. Do you mean this discussion paper?
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-pag...pment-suitable
That is not a proposal to mandate.
Are you spreading "fake news" or is this another demonstration of your inability to separate facts from imagination?
If you have the evidence, post the link. Do you mean this discussion paper?
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-pag...pment-suitable
That is not a proposal to mandate.
Are you spreading "fake news" or is this another demonstration of your inability to separate facts from imagination?
Dick, I gather that you are not superimposing the past on the present again? Nowadays, what is relevant traffic? Whatever the pilot decides. Could it clog up frequencies? Depends on the circumstances. Both pilots decide to say nothing, in same area in IMC, now there's a crap shoot.
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Currently voluntary, but for how long.....?
Point 2 sounds promising. It smells like they may consider allowing low cost non-TSO GPS sources for ADSB out. (Unless I've been living under a rock and this has already happened)
1. In consultation with industry and relevant technical experts, review the ASTRA proposal for standards for ADS-B fitment in VFR aircraft.
2 Identify appropriate performance standards for suitable ADS-B equipment that can be voluntarily fitted and used operationally in VFR aircraft.
3 Make any necessary changes to CASA's regulations, standards and advisory material to accommodate suitable ADS-B equipment for voluntary installation in VFR aircraft.
2 Identify appropriate performance standards for suitable ADS-B equipment that can be voluntarily fitted and used operationally in VFR aircraft.
3 Make any necessary changes to CASA's regulations, standards and advisory material to accommodate suitable ADS-B equipment for voluntary installation in VFR aircraft.
Vag. The info came from a person who has recently retired from the Canberra bureaucracy
With all the important safety and cost related items CASA could be spending time on this is up there on the top of the list. Not logical.
If they concentrated on the safety of fare paying passengers they should be pushing for VFR aircraft that operate where RPT do to have a mode C transponder fitted. These are inexpensive and work with airline installed TCAS. Safety is maximised.
Griffo. Yes I remember the old FS system well. Problem was it cost tens of millions a year and also was the excuse that prevented pilots in radar covered uncontrolled airspace from obtaining a radar service.
With all the important safety and cost related items CASA could be spending time on this is up there on the top of the list. Not logical.
If they concentrated on the safety of fare paying passengers they should be pushing for VFR aircraft that operate where RPT do to have a mode C transponder fitted. These are inexpensive and work with airline installed TCAS. Safety is maximised.
Griffo. Yes I remember the old FS system well. Problem was it cost tens of millions a year and also was the excuse that prevented pilots in radar covered uncontrolled airspace from obtaining a radar service.
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
If they concentrated on the safety of fare paying passengers they should be pushing for VFR aircraft that operate where RPT do to have a mode C transponder fitted. These are inexpensive and work with airline installed TCAS. Safety is maximised.
TCAS is still a last-ditch saviour though. Not good to arrive on 10nm final and find smasher TCAS suddenly in front at close range (no TCAS target vectors shown in the Bloggsmobile...).
But no mandated transponder is acceptably ‘safe’ for aircraft mixing it with RPT aircraft, including jets, at Mildura, Wagga, Griffith, Narrandera, Dubbo...
How could it be less ‘safe’ if transponders were mandated?
How could it be less ‘safe’ if transponders were mandated?
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 10th Feb 2018 at 08:15.
Hey Dick,
Re' Griffo. Yes I remember the old FS system well. Problem was it cost tens of millions a year and also was the excuse that prevented pilots in radar covered uncontrolled airspace from obtaining a radar service.'
Funded by a 2C/litre levy on AVGAS, so I'm told.....
Note NOT on AVTUR, just on AVGAS.....
Your 'TENS OF MILLIONS /Year is a bit 'ambitious' doncha rekkon..???
IF you can claim that, then I can claim to have been 'short changed' in my redundo package.......
I seem to remember I've told U a MILLION times not to exaggerate so much.....Maybe in my dreams...
And no, they could always get a RADAR service.
If required, on the FS freq. for the area in which they were operating, and the info was NO different than if it was originating direct from the RADAR operator....which when it was used....it was.
Anyway, you seem to imply that I would like to see a 'return to the good ole days'..?
NOPE!
They are 'well & Truly OVAH!!
The G/A community is sooo far away from those days now, its just a distant (Fond) memory of services provided and the times where EVERYBODY knew and understood the rules.
HF ruled 'supreme' in the GAFA - formerly called the 'outback'.
Doesn't matter any more, with satellite / GPS EPIRBS etc, who needs that stuff any more?
'Affordable Safety' rooles the day....
But...Are 'we' the 'great unwashed G/A' any better off these days?
NOPE!!
But, Hey....I'm still alive, and you are still alive, and the RPT bizzo seems to be ok, 'tis just a pity about the G/A disaster and the 'oncoming' pilot shortage? Shortage for who(m)? may I ask?
The Airlines?
Don't really think so. They will recruit from wherever.....
G/A SP/IFR?
Yep.
I think that the current mob of aero 'teachers' are a bit 'short' on the basics,
as one Late Examiner of Airmen in WA said to me not long before he became 'late',
'WE set the standards..." And, I do believe that he was right!
No Cheers, NOPE, NONE at ALL!!!
p.s. 'Tis OK Bloggsie...I'll be down 'in the spinifex' / rocks if EVER I hear your dulcet tones a'comin' up my clacker.....
But then. I don't venture much around The Pilbara these days....pity....boo hoo.....
Re' Griffo. Yes I remember the old FS system well. Problem was it cost tens of millions a year and also was the excuse that prevented pilots in radar covered uncontrolled airspace from obtaining a radar service.'
Funded by a 2C/litre levy on AVGAS, so I'm told.....
Note NOT on AVTUR, just on AVGAS.....
Your 'TENS OF MILLIONS /Year is a bit 'ambitious' doncha rekkon..???
IF you can claim that, then I can claim to have been 'short changed' in my redundo package.......
I seem to remember I've told U a MILLION times not to exaggerate so much.....Maybe in my dreams...
And no, they could always get a RADAR service.
If required, on the FS freq. for the area in which they were operating, and the info was NO different than if it was originating direct from the RADAR operator....which when it was used....it was.
Anyway, you seem to imply that I would like to see a 'return to the good ole days'..?
NOPE!
They are 'well & Truly OVAH!!
The G/A community is sooo far away from those days now, its just a distant (Fond) memory of services provided and the times where EVERYBODY knew and understood the rules.
HF ruled 'supreme' in the GAFA - formerly called the 'outback'.
Doesn't matter any more, with satellite / GPS EPIRBS etc, who needs that stuff any more?
'Affordable Safety' rooles the day....
But...Are 'we' the 'great unwashed G/A' any better off these days?
NOPE!!
But, Hey....I'm still alive, and you are still alive, and the RPT bizzo seems to be ok, 'tis just a pity about the G/A disaster and the 'oncoming' pilot shortage? Shortage for who(m)? may I ask?
The Airlines?
Don't really think so. They will recruit from wherever.....
G/A SP/IFR?
Yep.
I think that the current mob of aero 'teachers' are a bit 'short' on the basics,
as one Late Examiner of Airmen in WA said to me not long before he became 'late',
'WE set the standards..." And, I do believe that he was right!
No Cheers, NOPE, NONE at ALL!!!
p.s. 'Tis OK Bloggsie...I'll be down 'in the spinifex' / rocks if EVER I hear your dulcet tones a'comin' up my clacker.....
But then. I don't venture much around The Pilbara these days....pity....boo hoo.....
The objective benefits of the old FS system were mostly about SAR and WX and NOTAM information. That’s all been superseded by technology.
The belief that the old FS system reduced the probabilities of mid-air collisions was probably misguided but, even if it wasn’t, the reduction was at the ‘winning lotto’ end of the spectrum.
The belief that the old FS system reduced the probabilities of mid-air collisions was probably misguided but, even if it wasn’t, the reduction was at the ‘winning lotto’ end of the spectrum.
I see your point, TIEW.
We should therefore allocate resources to mitigate the risks of an airborne collision the probabilities of which are the same as winning lotto.
Do you think that’s happening in the operating theatre, or in road safety, or in the coffee shop?
We should therefore allocate resources to mitigate the risks of an airborne collision the probabilities of which are the same as winning lotto.
Do you think that’s happening in the operating theatre, or in road safety, or in the coffee shop?