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DHC Beaver down in Hawkesbury

Old 4th Jan 2018, 06:08
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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I know nothing about beavers but there is no way in hell it would be a 250-300 HP engine.
It would have to be up around the 450-500 HP mark surely?

Edit - Just saw your post megan 450HP thanks!
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 06:27
  #142 (permalink)  
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 07:11
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sheppey View Post
I notice in today's The Australian newspaper, some bloke who flies Beavers is quoted as saying that with a few hours on type (Beaver) you don't need a stall warning device since good pilots can feel by the seat of the pants if the aircraft is close to the stall
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with this statement?

For some aircraft, yep, definitely you can.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 07:19
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Not only dose the dhc-2 not have a stall warning it dose not have a pom. The awt wings are fitted with a stall warning. And if you consided that air ag, robbies and super spread compined had the largest fleet of breavers in the world, all 3 companys where owned by the same poeple just different states ie vic,nsw and sa. The amount of hours and tonage was amazing. I can remember as a kid 1500 ton super heaps with mostly single aircraft and two aircraft running of the same
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 07:22
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zzuf View Post
From the published pics it looks like the engine mounts yielded with downward bending with some force from the port side.
The fuselage is not very distorted - even the starboard windshield and front door frames are basically intact.
The fuselage bottom skin is rippled but also looks intact.
Depending on seat failures and safety harness performance, the impact may well have been survivable for at least some on board.
Aeromarine what do you reckon?
I would have thought that a very high value of longitudinal deceleration would have been against it. More damage to the fuselage would have been desirable.
And of course the vintage of the seats and restraints (9G longitudinal). I could speculate on scenarios where there were chances of survival, but not today
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 07:23
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Connedrod , with all respects what did you just say?
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 07:30
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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DHC-2 Beaver engine (R-985 Wasp Junior) is 450HP supercharged not 240-300.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 07:46
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sheppey View Post
I notice in today's The Australian newspaper, some bloke who flies Beavers is quoted as saying that with a few hours on type (Beaver) you don't need a stall warning device since good pilots can feel by the seat of the pants if the aircraft is close to the stall
"Some bloke", huh? What would he know anyway!
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 07:52
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Just saw a small photo and cant really see on a small sceen.. #5 looks like the head is gone. Thats looking rearward next to the red sump on the left if someone has got a bigger screen they may be able to see it better
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 08:25
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Image

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Old 4th Jan 2018, 09:00
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Aeromariner, re the seats... they may be of a rated G but what are the floor tracks?

That issue (which may not be relevant) reminds me of a Basler accident (turbine DC3) that stalled on takeoff in ground effect and slid across the snow to a halt. Everyone survived, still safely in their seats. Except they were neatly piled up in the front end of the fuselage...
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 10:08
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Very well said, Mr Jorgan.

We can all be tempted to speculate, but without further data, thatís all it is.

Thinking of the sadness in all the families involved.


Ron

Originally Posted by hugh_jorgan View Post
I dont think I have ever read 2 more arrogant posts on PPRuNe (please someone correct my spelling). Gareth had over 9000 hours on floats. You dont get to 9000 hours on floats by "pissing about". Heres an idea, until more is known about the incident how about everyone keep their opinions to themselves. Yeah we all know what it looks like if you listen to the eyewitness accounts but none of us were sitting next to the pilot at the time so nobody here is qualified to comment on what caused the accident or accuse the pilot of "pissing about".

1. The run out of cottage point in a light northerly does not involve any high risk steep turns.
2. One has to try pretty hard to mishandle a beaver with climb power and climb flap to the point where it falls out of the sky.

That particular operation and the pilots working there are nothing but absolute professionals. They are a great bunch of lads and no doubt that they are all hurting right now after the loss of a colleague.

This is supposed to be a Professional Pilots Rumour Network not a place to go and tell the ATSB how they should be doing their job or attack a fellow pilot that can no longer defend himself.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 10:11
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by StickWithTheTruth View Post
This will do nothing for public perceptions.

Seaplane 'destroyed', rebuilt following previous fatal crash
Not the only time this has occurred. In November 1983 I went solo in Warrior MHE at Schofields. Years later, a pilot was killed there after landing on the nose wheel of MHE. SFC's insurer wrote off the aircraft. A YSBK training organisation rebuilt the aircraft and it is now PZG. On the 25th anniversary of my first solo, I had the pleasure of flying PZG out to the training area with a 24 year old instructor..

(DH Dragon UXG is another example.)
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 10:14
  #154 (permalink)  
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I would have thought that a very high value of longitudinal deceleration would have been against it. More damage to the fuselage would have been desirable.

Concur with those thoughts.

And of course the vintage of the seats and restraints (9G longitudinal).

I have no idea what standards applied to the original Beaver certification (and am not overly interested in searching them out) but, being of ancient vintage, it might even predate the 9G static restraint.

re the seats... they may be of a rated G but what are the floor tracks?

Depending on the seat certification, one would expect that the seats are matched to the more restrictive of the aeroplane certification requirements and the seating standards of the day. Certainly that was the process at Ansair (an Ansett subsidiary, now long defunct) when, for many years, I was the certification delegate for aircraft seat manufacture.

accident (turbine DC3) that stalled on takeoff in ground effect and slid across the snow to a halt. Everyone survived, still safely in their seats. Except they were neatly piled up in the front end of the fuselage...

Again, one would need to know the relevant standards for the particular aircraft. The original DC3s had 6g static seats.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 10:24
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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I wonít quibble with your certification knowledge JT, but suffice to say the pax I met werenít subjected to anything like 6 G and the seats pulled out of the floor.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 10:33
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Here was the previous accident. Why would someone salvage such a mess? Surely the cost of fixing that would require a lot of time and dollars probably easier to just buy a used one.



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Old 4th Jan 2018, 10:46
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Here was the previous accident. Why would someone salvage such a mess? Surely the cost of fixing that would require a lot of time and dollars probably easier to just buy a used one.
Because its cheaper to rebuild than buy a new one (unavailable). People rebuild wrecks from the ID plate only basically hand rebuilding the airframe and often better than original

I am really thinking this is irrelevant to the investigation
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 10:52
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, and by doing so avoid pesky modern day safety standards that decrease payloads and increase purchase and running costs on new aircraft.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 11:02
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Angle of Attack View Post
Connedrod , with all respects what did you just say?
Think he's had one too many of something!

DF.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 11:38
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Except they were neatly piled up in the front end of the fuselage...
The Huey had similar trouble in the early days, pilots were found securely strapped in their seats, but outside the aircraft, having gone through the windscreen in what should have been survivable accidents. Solved by having the harness secured to the floor rather than the seat.
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