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DHC Beaver down in Hawkesbury

Old 31st Jan 2018, 02:10
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, I think it is likely that we will never know.
Agreed. It is hardly likely, if circumstantial evidence does exist , (family hearsay?), that the pilot was asked if they, the passengers, could have a look up Jerusalem Bay to see some feature of interest, the investigation will reveal this. Many the undoing for an impulsive decision better not taken.

a complete strip, repaint and rebuild every three years
Sorry, but "tell that to the marines".
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 05:00
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly statistic show that experience has NO influence on the stats of pilots losing control due to turning leading to stall and spin accident.

just as may high time "experienced" pilots have lost their lives in this scenario as have low time pilots.

edit, i am not saying this was the cause, but statistics in general show that experience means nothing when it comes to loss of control incidents in aircraft.
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 05:04
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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...that the pilot was asked if they, the passengers, could have a look up Jerusalem Bay to see some feature of interest,
The aircraft captain makes the decisions even if a pax or a third party asks for something out of the ordinary...
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 06:30
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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ATSB Interim Report is out

The ATSB interim report is out:

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2017-118/

But a quick reading doesn't give any clues as to the cause of the crash - "flight control continuity throughout, indicating no evidence of flight control issues". With no CVR we may never know for sure.
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 09:01
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Yep! We got it thanks Rob, on the previous page!
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 09:22
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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I'd be curious to see the topography and standard departures for the other destinations in their network to see if one of the other destinations has a left turn where perhaps he should have been turning right
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 19:50
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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Yes I wonder if he accidentally went up the wrong valley. On looking at Google Earth that looks possible but also there looks like an escape route at the end of Jerusalem Bay if you bear left, though it may not have been visual at the crash point.

I went up a wrong valley once in the great dividing range and it was not a good feeling when I realized the error, but I had space to do a U turn. I was trained in tight canyon turns using full flap in some blue mountain scud running flights. Your horizon can be fooled by the close hilly terrain.
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 22:27
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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I was thinking overnight - it's the Landrover of the skies and been used everywhere for a long time, well understood, but is the Beaver still the right aircraft for this operation?
450hp as opposed to 850hp for the Caravan.
C208 stalls at 70kias - assume that's empty - dunno about the DH-2.
Guess it's a trade-off of purchase, operating costs, average passenger loads etc.
And performance - cruise speed, landing and takeoff run.
Not pointing the stick at the pilot or operator.
Just wondering.
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 01:30
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
I was thinking overnight - it's the Landrover of the skies and been used everywhere for a long time, well understood, but is the Beaver still the right aircraft for this operation?
450hp as opposed to 850hp for the Caravan.
C208 stalls at 70kias - assume that's empty - dunno about the DH-2.
Guess it's a trade-off of purchase, operating costs, average passenger loads etc.
And performance - cruise speed, landing and takeoff run.
Not pointing the stick at the pilot or operator.
Just wondering.
I'm not sure how you can compare the Beaver to a 14 seat aircraft that flies perhaps some 1.5 times of the speed of the Beaver. The climb rate of the 208 at MAUW on floats isn't mind blowing either.
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 03:13
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisJ800 View Post
Yes I wonder if he accidentally went up the wrong valley. On looking at Google Earth that looks possible but also there looks like an escape route at the end of Jerusalem Bay if you bear left, though it may not have been visual at the crash point.
I wonder if for some reason they were going to look at the other dining location the company goes. If you were going to Berowra Waters Inn which is in the next bay across the freeway that looks like the first point you could make a turn in the right direction?
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 13:03
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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There are a few boaties (who are also GA pilots) very familiar with Cowan Creek and Cottage Point. A couple take the view that a Beaver entering Jerusalem Bay, during take off, would be highly unusual and potentially very dangerous...
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 23:24
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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As a Retired Ag pilot I would suspect flap selector left in the flaps up position not flaps down position - Reason more flap good less flap bad bad.
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 01:17
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by georgetw View Post
As a Retired Ag pilot I would suspect flap selector left in the flaps up position not flaps down position - Reason more flap good less flap bad bad.
In what context, when you're trying to hoik her around in some sort of canyon turn?
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 01:56
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, if more lift needed more flap. For flaps 1- select flaps up or down then pump lever and pump. We always selected flaps down as default, then if flaps needed in a hurry just pump.
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 06:57
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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George,

The ATSB preliminary report with regards to the wreckage examination states that,

The aircraft was transported to secure facilities for further examination. Initial examination of the aircraft wreckage indicated:

- the flaps were in the ‘climb’ position of 15 ± 1 degrees
Are you saying that the flap lever should have been left in the down position to so that the pilot could have increased flap from the 'climb' position to prevent or recover from the turning stall?

As an experienced ag operator (I presume on type), your comments lend an important insight into the handling characteristics and procedures that should be used on the DH-2.

Please feel free to expand your comments on handling methods taught and learned from your experience.
For example how often and much flap was required for low altitude turns during ag operations?
Was flap used for all low altitude turns? Could flap be used to recover from incipient turning stalls?

Thanks for your input.
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 08:45
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Possible things. Takeoff flap greater than 15 degrees, airborne flaps reduced to climb flap, flap selector left in up selection due next planned flap would be up to zero. Change of flight conditions, low level turn required, pump flaps and they retract,Now stop pumping reset selector then pump again. The docile aircraft bits very hard, Stall in turn with bottom rudder = spin under Very hard to recover at low altitude. top rudder spin over the top recoverable. I tried it in a Ceres with a full load and we flew away at about 10 feet and a dumped load.
This a possible answer.
Happy flying George
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 23:48
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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Hi George,

Not sure if you have seen it, but NZ Ag Beavers had a mod on the flap handle designed so if you ever had to pump flaps in a hurry, they went down. It was a simple lever on the flap handle just like a brake lever on a bike, flaps only came up if you squeezed the lever. Must have been a few incidents on Ag as you can imagine with having flap selector in wrong position. Think it was a Fieldair mod. Two Beavers I have been connected with and others I have seen all had the mod, even for civil use.
A google search reveals a company called Stolairus Aviation in the US seems to have copied the idea and have STCd it in the States, Canada pending.

Last edited by Weheka; 3rd Feb 2018 at 00:15.
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Old 3rd Feb 2018, 05:32
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Made some back of the envelope calcs, distance between shorelines in the bay at crash site some 940 feet, diameter of turn assuming kept on the stall burble for the angle of bank 820 - 860 feet.
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Old 3rd Feb 2018, 06:58
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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Turn radius.

Originally Posted by megan View Post
Made some back of the envelope calcs, distance between shorelines in the bay at crash site some 940 feet, diameter of turn assuming kept on the stall burble for the angle of bank 820 - 860 feet.
At what speed/weight/flap/ power setting?

800 feet seems like a large radius turn for a Beaver flown by an experienced pilot.
And if it were me I would rather have to 'hook it hard to the left' than 'to the right', particularly with a lot of power with an American engine rotation.
A dynamic stall to the right at low level can be very interesting indeed

Just sayin
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Old 3rd Feb 2018, 07:31
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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How about copping the power, full flap & then land straight ahead? It is a float plane after all. Then just taxi back out of the bay & take-off again. Or am I missing something?
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