A Question of Command. DC-8 accident in USA
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A Question of Command. DC-8 accident in USA
In the course of a night training flight on 30 March 1967, and while making a simulated two-engine approach to land at New Orleans International Airport, USA, a DC-8 crashed into a residential area. The aircraft, several homes, and part of a motel was destroyed, and the six occupants of the aircraft and thirteen persons on the ground were killed.
The aircraft had taxied out for take-off only seven minutes before, at 0040 hours local time. The night was fine and clear, with no significant wind.
Under the title of A Question of Command, the following story was published in Aviation Safety Digest No. 56 dated May, 1968. It concerned a DC-8 that crashed during a night approach. A captain-trainee occupied the left hand pilot seat and a DC-8 check captain was in the right hand seat.
At 0043 hours the crew advised ATC they were ready for take-off on runway 28, and that they wished to circle and land on runway 01. At 0047 the aircraft reported on base leg for runway 01 and ATC cleared them to land.
The tower controller watched the aircraft as it turned left on to final approach. At first, the turn appeared a normal shallow turn but then the angle of bank increased and the descending turn continued until the aircraft was in a 60 degree bank on a heading of about 320 degrees. At this stage the aircraft struck power lines and crashed.
Investigation showed that the first engine failure was simulated at 0044 as the aircraft reached v1 (critical engine failure speed). One minute later, as the aircraft was climbing, a second engine failure was simulated. The aircraft was then at a height of 1,200 feet, flying at 200 knots, with Nos 1 and 2 engines at idle power.
The following link is to the National Transportation Safety Board, United States, accident investigation report.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AAR67AG.pdf
The aircraft had taxied out for take-off only seven minutes before, at 0040 hours local time. The night was fine and clear, with no significant wind.
Under the title of A Question of Command, the following story was published in Aviation Safety Digest No. 56 dated May, 1968. It concerned a DC-8 that crashed during a night approach. A captain-trainee occupied the left hand pilot seat and a DC-8 check captain was in the right hand seat.
At 0043 hours the crew advised ATC they were ready for take-off on runway 28, and that they wished to circle and land on runway 01. At 0047 the aircraft reported on base leg for runway 01 and ATC cleared them to land.
The tower controller watched the aircraft as it turned left on to final approach. At first, the turn appeared a normal shallow turn but then the angle of bank increased and the descending turn continued until the aircraft was in a 60 degree bank on a heading of about 320 degrees. At this stage the aircraft struck power lines and crashed.
Investigation showed that the first engine failure was simulated at 0044 as the aircraft reached v1 (critical engine failure speed). One minute later, as the aircraft was climbing, a second engine failure was simulated. The aircraft was then at a height of 1,200 feet, flying at 200 knots, with Nos 1 and 2 engines at idle power.
The following link is to the National Transportation Safety Board, United States, accident investigation report.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AAR67AG.pdf
This is CRM. 
The High and the Mighty (1954)
Scene: The aircraft has an engine out and a fuel leak. The Captain's plan is to ditch in San Francisco bay, while still under control. The FO (John Wayne's) plan is to fly inland over the built up area to the airport to land - he thinks they may have just enough fuel, the Captain disagrees.
They have asked the Navigator to calculate the amount of fuel, and he is taking his time...
The High and the Mighty (1954)
Scene: The aircraft has an engine out and a fuel leak. The Captain's plan is to ditch in San Francisco bay, while still under control. The FO (John Wayne's) plan is to fly inland over the built up area to the airport to land - he thinks they may have just enough fuel, the Captain disagrees.
They have asked the Navigator to calculate the amount of fuel, and he is taking his time...
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In the USA Cowboys and freedom win every time thats why were so great and have invented the airplane and most everything else from light, electricity, telephone etc and done most everything, try it its good.....
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The Embry-Riddle NTSB archive is another good place to find old accident reports, see if this link works:
http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online...s/AAR67-AG.pdf
Air Canada had a similar fatal DC-8 training crash a few weeks later at Ottawa. CF-TJM was lost after attempting a go-around while simulating two engines out.
It's been a long time since I've practiced a two engine approach in the DC-8 sim. It seems like below some height, maybe 500 feet, you were committed to land. Also, wasn't there some zero the rudder trim on final procedure? On some planes the rudder trim seems to be a big deal on an engine(s) out landing, on others not so much.
Training in the plane was a deadly business decades ago.
Delta had an earlier fatal mishap in Atlanta in 1960 with a Convair 880 (which also had an Eastern Airlines registration from an order change):
On May 23, 1960, at 1152 e. s. t., a Delta Air Lines Convair 880, N8804E, crashed and burned during takeoff at Atlanta, Georgia, Four crew members, the only occupants, received fatal injuries.
The flight was scheduled for training for two pilots who were to “check out” in the CV-880. A pilot-trainee occupied the left seat and a qualified instructor-pilot occupied the right. Immediately after liftoff the aircraft assumed an extremely nose-high attitude and banked steeply to the left. It then rolled to a vertical right bank, the nose fell through, and the aircraft struck the ground.
The Board determines the probable cause of this accident was that the air craft was stalled, for reasons undertermined, at an altitude too low to effect recovery.
The flight was scheduled for training for two pilots who were to “check out” in the CV-880. A pilot-trainee occupied the left seat and a qualified instructor-pilot occupied the right. Immediately after liftoff the aircraft assumed an extremely nose-high attitude and banked steeply to the left. It then rolled to a vertical right bank, the nose fell through, and the aircraft struck the ground.
The Board determines the probable cause of this accident was that the air craft was stalled, for reasons undertermined, at an altitude too low to effect recovery.
The analysis section of the 1960 ATL crash report indicates that a number 4 engine failure was probably simulated on takeoff.
Longtimelurker
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"Training in the plane was a deadly business decades ago."
I did a bit of a/c training in the mid 90's on the 727 and DC 9. The opening and closing statements of my brief " If I say I got it I got it". Lots of fun but serious business !
I did a bit of a/c training in the mid 90's on the 727 and DC 9. The opening and closing statements of my brief " If I say I got it I got it". Lots of fun but serious business !
I'd certainly agree with you both. DL also had another training accident in '72 at KGSW:
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19720530-0
Not part of doing V1 cuts in the airplane but a terrible accident none the less. Lost an FAA inspector in that one IIRC. Heck of a nice guy.
Speaking of V1 cuts in the airplane, as you know, they were just part of the deal in the pre-visual-sim days. You didn't get finish the type rating until you'd done the airplane portion which involved pulling an engine to idle at V1 as well landing in the same state.
While there was certainly a risk to all this, it was a great confidence builder. And, the airplane was easier to manage than the sim anyway.
The first sims I encountered with visuals were crude affairs and I can't remember how long before ratings were a sim-only process.
I guess all things considered, today's environment is better.
Bubba,
"Also, wasn't there some zero the rudder trim on final procedure? On some planes the rudder trim seems to be a big deal on an engine(s) out landing, on others not so much."
Yes, don't know about the DC8 but the MD80 series contained this statement in the training stuff; best place for it was in the flair. Don't bet money on my recollection of the reason but I think it's because the rudder trim displaced the rudder pedals which displaced the nose wheel from centered once the strut was compressed:
Not Later Than Touchdown
The PNF zeros the rudder trim as briefed by the PF, no later than touchdown. Failure to center the rudder trim may create directional control problems during the rollout.
Last edited by bafanguy; 19th Nov 2017 at 20:41.
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Wow, I didn't know that! There is not a day that goes by, where I don't learn something new!
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Beach King yes correct USA USA USA did it all. The light bulb, electricity ever time you turn your lights on in the house or drive a car think of Uncle Sam.
Moon Landing, motor car, airplane, B707/747,Electricity, telephone, telex, computer the list is a mile long.
Australia contribution rules rules rules, committee , inquiry no results "can't do this can't do that " blah blah blah, speed cameras, toll roads and dobbing on your friends.... Sad place....In Aviation Producer of the Nomad which the tail fell off , thats it hahaha.
Moon Landing, motor car, airplane, B707/747,Electricity, telephone, telex, computer the list is a mile long.
Australia contribution rules rules rules, committee , inquiry no results "can't do this can't do that " blah blah blah, speed cameras, toll roads and dobbing on your friends.... Sad place....In Aviation Producer of the Nomad which the tail fell off , thats it hahaha.
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Beach King yes correct USA USA USA did it all. The light bulb, electricity ever time you turn your lights on in the house or drive a car think of Uncle Sam.
Moon Landing, motor car, airplane, B707/747,Electricity, telephone, telex, computer the list is a mile long.
Australia contribution rules rules rules, committee , inquiry no results "can't do this can't do that " blah blah blah, speed cameras, toll roads and dobbing on your friends.... Sad place....In Aviation Producer of the Nomad which the tail fell off , thats it hahaha.
Moon Landing, motor car, airplane, B707/747,Electricity, telephone, telex, computer the list is a mile long.
Australia contribution rules rules rules, committee , inquiry no results "can't do this can't do that " blah blah blah, speed cameras, toll roads and dobbing on your friends.... Sad place....In Aviation Producer of the Nomad which the tail fell off , thats it hahaha.
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+ don't forget you invented Trump & we invented Turnbull - ahh on second thought disregard all that... ps Turnbull is the Australian Prime Minister - for now...
Last edited by VH-MLE; 22nd Nov 2017 at 12:36. Reason: Add the ps
Hey, y'all can screw up just like us. Crash aircraft during training that is, not politics.
RAAF 707 training crash
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19911029-0
RAAF 707 training crash
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19911029-0
Airtours (British European Airways)
We did the same in the early 70s at Prestwick..one of the two we wrote off.
Prestwick with a trainee who hadn’t really flown for a year and critical simulated failure after V1.
Engineer or P3..forgot which broke his ankle jumping out. All suffered third degree burns as training captain had to write the report before they went to hospital and washed off the kerosene.
The other was at Heraklion with a “heavy” landing that bent both wings..flown back to base with passengers on.
Two out of the ten we owned..another nearly got the airline banned from Hong Kong after the Chung Chow? Approach as they missed the turn and only just missed the checker board attached to a block of flats.
Miss the good old days
BP
Prestwick with a trainee who hadn’t really flown for a year and critical simulated failure after V1.
Engineer or P3..forgot which broke his ankle jumping out. All suffered third degree burns as training captain had to write the report before they went to hospital and washed off the kerosene.
The other was at Heraklion with a “heavy” landing that bent both wings..flown back to base with passengers on.
Two out of the ten we owned..another nearly got the airline banned from Hong Kong after the Chung Chow? Approach as they missed the turn and only just missed the checker board attached to a block of flats.
Miss the good old days
BP
