Report of plane missing near Renmark SA
Don Quixote Impersonator
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,402
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From: Australia
Leafblower and Xeptu.
I had composed a response but when I hit the reply button it disappeared and told me I wasn't logged in, bugger its 2:30am so I'm off to bed.
For tomorrow.
I had composed a response but when I hit the reply button it disappeared and told me I wasn't logged in, bugger its 2:30am so I'm off to bed.
For tomorrow.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 58
Likes: 2
From: THE BLUEBIRD CAFE
As with most fatalities, especially ones manifestly avoidable, in hindsight ,
the overwhelming emotion is an outraged , furious or endlessly questioning grief. Grief that any not intimately close to the deceased cannot begin to imagine.
Yes, (that's for the longer term) , and ATSB need to release their initial findings on the condition of the aircraft at the earliest possible moment. No prevarications , excuses or protracted delays this time. We can but hope.
the overwhelming emotion is an outraged , furious or endlessly questioning grief. Grief that any not intimately close to the deceased cannot begin to imagine.
CASA has a role to play in funding and facilitating an investment in skills.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,577
Likes: 193
From: NSW Australia
Derfred
Takeoff Climb Gradient - One engine inoperative
1. Inoperative propeller - Feathered
2. Power lever - Takeoff Power - Condition Lever - TOCL
3. Landing Gear - Down
4. Wing Flaps - T.O.
5. Climb Speed - 100 KIAS
6. Windshield and Engine Anti-Ice - OFF
This is comparable to the OEI climb in the first segment.
I shouldn't have said "2nd segment" - as you correctly infer, that commences at gear up.
Where I stepped on my dick is trying to equate the performance of a Conquest to a Transport category aircraft, especially since it's nearly 20 years since I did my ATPLs
All the above and preceding guff presupposes that the failure was initiated correctly and safely by the check pilot and then handled correctly and safely by the candidate.
...and it is pretty adventurous to even assume (at this point sitting in my kitchen 1000km from the accident site) that the accident was caused by any particular action by anyone on the aircraft, let alone that it was caused by specific actions by specific people.
...so I'll leave it at that.
Quote:
Takeoff Climb Gradient should be 3% at 100 KIAS, with gear DN and flaps TO (ie: 2nd Segment)
Did you mean gear UP?
Takeoff Climb Gradient should be 3% at 100 KIAS, with gear DN and flaps TO (ie: 2nd Segment)
Did you mean gear UP?
1. Inoperative propeller - Feathered
2. Power lever - Takeoff Power - Condition Lever - TOCL
3. Landing Gear - Down
4. Wing Flaps - T.O.
5. Climb Speed - 100 KIAS
6. Windshield and Engine Anti-Ice - OFF
This is comparable to the OEI climb in the first segment.
I shouldn't have said "2nd segment" - as you correctly infer, that commences at gear up.
Where I stepped on my dick is trying to equate the performance of a Conquest to a Transport category aircraft, especially since it's nearly 20 years since I did my ATPLs
All the above and preceding guff presupposes that the failure was initiated correctly and safely by the check pilot and then handled correctly and safely by the candidate.
...and it is pretty adventurous to even assume (at this point sitting in my kitchen 1000km from the accident site) that the accident was caused by any particular action by anyone on the aircraft, let alone that it was caused by specific actions by specific people.
...so I'll leave it at that.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 2nd June 2017 at 22:05.
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 198
From: The Swan Downunder
We’re all on the same page, our discussion is for those aircraft that can but are not certificated to do so. I suspect we here have been doing this for a long time anyway but we need to go one step further.
We need to take leafblowers claytons part 35 and decide as an industry with casa support what is in and what is not. For example we can leave the 1st segment out since it’s not practical, accept that if you reject a takeoff on a 1200 metre runway at close to V1 you are almost certainly going to run off the end and focus on what you do should that happen.
Keep the 2nd and 3rd segments, use 1.6 to 2.4 percent gradients, understand weight and temperature limits to achieve that, include either a curved departure or a single turn after cleanup at 400 feet onto an obstacle clear flight path to lsalt/msa, understand how to create such special procedures. Google earth in 3D is a beautiful thing for that purpose. Understand how that turn is conducted.
Understand how many track miles it takes to get to just 1500 feet over a 1.6% gradient. (12 to 15 Nm) and what you do from there, return or go somewhere else.
Hands up all those single pilot turbine drivers that read this with more than a passing glance.
We need to take leafblowers claytons part 35 and decide as an industry with casa support what is in and what is not. For example we can leave the 1st segment out since it’s not practical, accept that if you reject a takeoff on a 1200 metre runway at close to V1 you are almost certainly going to run off the end and focus on what you do should that happen.
Keep the 2nd and 3rd segments, use 1.6 to 2.4 percent gradients, understand weight and temperature limits to achieve that, include either a curved departure or a single turn after cleanup at 400 feet onto an obstacle clear flight path to lsalt/msa, understand how to create such special procedures. Google earth in 3D is a beautiful thing for that purpose. Understand how that turn is conducted.
Understand how many track miles it takes to get to just 1500 feet over a 1.6% gradient. (12 to 15 Nm) and what you do from there, return or go somewhere else.
Hands up all those single pilot turbine drivers that read this with more than a passing glance.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 838
Likes: 31
From: NZ
Simulating an engine failure on a Garrett is a critical exercise and I doubt you'd find any check pilot these days that would retard the PL to less than zero thrust (roughly 20% torque), or too quickly. Must be something else at play here.
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 198
From: The Swan Downunder
Both correct statements cloud in the perfect world. The prop locks will be inspected in order to rule them out. Once everything that it wasn't has been ruled out, whatever is left however improbable must be the cause
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 50
From: Next door to the neighbor from hell, who believes in chemtrails!
Someone wrote on Facebook that Rossair should ask the pilots who flew the plane previously that day about why the propellers weren't levelling out. Presumably she meant synchronising? I did ask her to clarify her statement but she didn't.
DF.
DF.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 50
From: Next door to the neighbor from hell, who believes in chemtrails!
From today's Adelaide Advertiser:
Authorities found the wreckage in the Cooltong Conservation Park about 7.10pm after the plane’s beacon was activated.
The ATSB is expected to remain on-site on Saturday and Sunday and may begin removing parts of the plane for further analysis.
Meanwhile, an online fundraiser has begun for Mr Scott.
An outpouring of support has seen the Go Fund Me initiative has raised more than $2600 for his family so far.
On Thursday, ATSB chief commissioner Greg Hood described the crash as one of the more unusual he had encountered given the vast experience of those on board.
He revealed the Cessna Conquest plane was only in the air for 60-90 seconds and reached an altitude of about 150m before it crashed.
DF.
Authorities found the wreckage in the Cooltong Conservation Park about 7.10pm after the plane’s beacon was activated.
The ATSB is expected to remain on-site on Saturday and Sunday and may begin removing parts of the plane for further analysis.
Meanwhile, an online fundraiser has begun for Mr Scott.
An outpouring of support has seen the Go Fund Me initiative has raised more than $2600 for his family so far.
On Thursday, ATSB chief commissioner Greg Hood described the crash as one of the more unusual he had encountered given the vast experience of those on board.
He revealed the Cessna Conquest plane was only in the air for 60-90 seconds and reached an altitude of about 150m before it crashed.
DF.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 766
From: Australia
That wouldn't be possible with the engine still running. Start locks can only engage with negative blade angle AND engine speed low enough for the springs to overcome the centrifugal force, i.e. during shutdown.
Simulating an engine failure on a Garrett is a critical exercise and I doubt you'd find any check pilot these days that would retard the PL to less than zero thrust (roughly 20% torque), or too quickly. Must be something else at play here.
Simulating an engine failure on a Garrett is a critical exercise and I doubt you'd find any check pilot these days that would retard the PL to less than zero thrust (roughly 20% torque), or too quickly. Must be something else at play here.
Airlines Metro over Lake George. Fortunately the "student" had the presence of mind to pull the fuel shutoff handle to shut it down.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 386
Likes: 4
From: Here and there
Nonetheless, that's a fair margin of performance before you start descending. By my reckoning that all exceeds the FAR25 requirements
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 305
From: All at sea
I am temporarily coming out of self-imposed exile to comment on this tragedy.
Too many here appear to have made up their minds that, because it happened on a training flight, pilot mishandling was the probable cause. Those of the unwashed public with sufficient interest would be gaining a similar impression.
The three pilots who died were not gung-ho amateurs playing at 'Top Gun'. They were mature, experienced and careful.
This training mission - in which the CASA Inspector was observing the Chief Pilot checking a very experienced inductee - would have been meticulously planned and briefed. Yes, there would have been some pressure on both operating pilots with CASA in attendance, but both would have experienced this before on several if not many occasions. Each of the three would have known the sequence of exercises, how and when emergencies would be simulated, and the speeds/pitch attitudes to be flown.
The Cessna Conquest 441 has benign handling characteristics and, as has been shown in an earlier post, good engine-out performance for its vintage and certification category.
BUT.....it is a 35 year old aeroplane not built to airliner standards of structural integrity or systems redundancy.
If pilot incapacitation can be ruled out (which we don't know yet) and the wreckage is too badly damaged to determine a mechanical cause, I do hope that the ATSB does not take the soft option of 'pilot error' ; rather returns an unresolved cause. With no CVR or FDR data, blaming the pilot(s) would be mere speculation.
Too many here appear to have made up their minds that, because it happened on a training flight, pilot mishandling was the probable cause. Those of the unwashed public with sufficient interest would be gaining a similar impression.
The three pilots who died were not gung-ho amateurs playing at 'Top Gun'. They were mature, experienced and careful.
This training mission - in which the CASA Inspector was observing the Chief Pilot checking a very experienced inductee - would have been meticulously planned and briefed. Yes, there would have been some pressure on both operating pilots with CASA in attendance, but both would have experienced this before on several if not many occasions. Each of the three would have known the sequence of exercises, how and when emergencies would be simulated, and the speeds/pitch attitudes to be flown.
The Cessna Conquest 441 has benign handling characteristics and, as has been shown in an earlier post, good engine-out performance for its vintage and certification category.
BUT.....it is a 35 year old aeroplane not built to airliner standards of structural integrity or systems redundancy.
If pilot incapacitation can be ruled out (which we don't know yet) and the wreckage is too badly damaged to determine a mechanical cause, I do hope that the ATSB does not take the soft option of 'pilot error' ; rather returns an unresolved cause. With no CVR or FDR data, blaming the pilot(s) would be mere speculation.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 3rd June 2017 at 08:21. Reason: word 'mere' (for speculation) inserted
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,577
Likes: 193
From: NSW Australia
This training mission - in which the CASA Inspector was observing the Chief Pilot checking a very experienced inductee - would have been meticulously planned and briefed. Yes, there would have been some pressure on both operating pilots with CASA in attendance, but both would have experienced this before on several if not many occasions. Each of the three would have known the sequence of exercises, how and when emergencies would be simulated, and the speeds/pitch attitudes to be flown.
...and none of us want to go to work tomorrow believing that.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 50
From: Next door to the neighbor from hell, who believes in chemtrails!
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 198
From: The Swan Downunder
Two Crash Sites
Yeah channel nine I think it was gave us a little pictorial suggesting a right circuit off RWY25 and crashing late downwind. it is in fact in the cooltong national park, near santos road, about a kilometre or two off the end of RWY25, the wreckage occupies a compact space of about 40 metres, all the essential components are present
Yeah channel nine I think it was gave us a little pictorial suggesting a right circuit off RWY25 and crashing late downwind. it is in fact in the cooltong national park, near santos road, about a kilometre or two off the end of RWY25, the wreckage occupies a compact space of about 40 metres, all the essential components are present
Last edited by Xeptu; 3rd June 2017 at 10:56. Reason: extended