Mallard Down in Perth
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
From: Victoria
For clarity, my post was talking about high inertia, low airspeed situations namely pulling off a crop and trying to turn air speed into height while at the same time trying to coax the light bar into cooperating. My ability might be a factor more so than anything else but I swear I can put the stick in a different place for my first few into wind turns than I can for a down wind turn without the aircraft telling me it's not happy. Would be interested to hear about others experiences with buffet or wing drop for into wind v down wind particularly in a 502.
I learnt my lesson about respecting the wind at low level the hard way but got away with my life, unfortunately the mallard occupants didn't. Stay safe all.
I learnt my lesson about respecting the wind at low level the hard way but got away with my life, unfortunately the mallard occupants didn't. Stay safe all.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1
From: Australia
Vincent, your scenario is different.
You are describing a climbing turn.
Also, when you turn downwind in your racetrack, your groundspeed is greater, requiring you to pull harder to make your line.
This is what catches people.
May I recommend the "Handbook for Agricultural Pilots" by HR Quantick.
Perhaps hard to get hold of now.
There is a whole section on turns in wind. It is science.
You are describing a climbing turn.
Also, when you turn downwind in your racetrack, your groundspeed is greater, requiring you to pull harder to make your line.
This is what catches people.
May I recommend the "Handbook for Agricultural Pilots" by HR Quantick.
Perhaps hard to get hold of now.
There is a whole section on turns in wind. It is science.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 9,223
Likes: 989
From: Seat 1A
Originally Posted by Airbubba
It works that way on some phones but not others. You can easily find examples of reversed text in selfie videos on Facebook and YouTube.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 50
From: Next door to the neighbor from hell, who believes in chemtrails!
Framer- I talking about a constant parcel if air, not a wind shear situation. That is what we are taking about in the upwind/downwind situation. Ie you have 25 kts of wind and you change your direction while in that 25 Kt wind stream. I know you know the deal but Step Turn on the other hand - 
Step Turn is from Canada - The northern hemispere has Trump physics to deal with.
Step Turn is from Canada - The northern hemispere has Trump physics to deal with.
DF.
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 668
Likes: 242
From: Elsewhere
Vincent, apart from your climbing turn bleeding off airspeed, and the natural tendency to want to pull the turn tighter as you get blown downwind, there's also the fact that the wind tends to increase as you get away from the ground. So with your climbing downwind turn, you quite possibly experienced an increasing tailwind, which is a genuine, nonmythical hazard when your margins are already thin.
Joined: Jun 1996
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 743
Likes: 4
From: Check with Ops
How can you get caught out by such 'massive' wind changes, Vincent, when the whole idea of going crop spraying at dawn, early evening or even night is to avoid the strong winds which are going to muck up your application? I might imagine that the torque from a relatively big prop could lead to favouring turning one way or the other (and that obviously becomes more significant as you slow down in the climb) but if the ball's in the middle and you don't exceed Clmax, then she's going to keep flying, downwind, 'upwind' (as someone previously wrote) or crosswind........especially in the zephyrs that are normal for a 502 doing its job.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 279
Likes: 23
From: Earth
The people here having nasty turns for the worst when turning downwind are confusing the alleged perils of that with the real effect, dependent on gross weight, of climbing or descending through a wind shear whether turning or not. A 'turn' within a moving mass of air will have no effect on KIAS.
This guy died because he ran out of airspeed, due to trying to mishandle the aircraft out of a situation caused by his poor planning. He flew through numerous holes in the cheese to get there, including the lack of supervision by the airshow management; after all it was only a planned circuit, landing, water taxi and takeoff/departure so what could possibly go wrong ?
This guy died because he ran out of airspeed, due to trying to mishandle the aircraft out of a situation caused by his poor planning. He flew through numerous holes in the cheese to get there, including the lack of supervision by the airshow management; after all it was only a planned circuit, landing, water taxi and takeoff/departure so what could possibly go wrong ?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
Likes: 1
From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
And, in the context of this mishap, the selfie video seems to me to be mirrored in the mobile phone video posted earlier. I'm not absolutely sure but I don't think Ms. Cakrawati was in the left seat for some of the video as some people here surmised.
Also, the video clip from Instagram linked above appears to be a second generation video of the original playing on a mobile phone recorded by another phone. If you look closely, you can see the reflection of the second phone being held above the screen of the phone playing the video.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Windsor
This guy died because he ran out of airspeed, due to trying to mishandle the aircraft out of a situation caused by his poor planning.
Nice Summary from The Wawa Zone.
Critical to the incident was that in the video, it appears that there were three seconds more or less when the pilot had warning of what was to come and did not recognise what was happening.
Everything being said about wind means little unfortunately as the aircraft stalled, incipient spin, then on entry to the water was in a fully developed spin.
While those ancient engines would have coughed up a furball or three with indignation at being pushed to full throttle, that would most likely have saved the day once the wings were levelled.
The point where the accident happened was the use of aileron to start a turn, the wing dropped and more aileron was used in my opinion. Aileron drag then dug the hole and the aircraft and pilot fell in.
Safety Modeling http://patientsafetyed.duhs.duke.edu...ss_cheese.html
Nice Summary from The Wawa Zone.
Critical to the incident was that in the video, it appears that there were three seconds more or less when the pilot had warning of what was to come and did not recognise what was happening.
Everything being said about wind means little unfortunately as the aircraft stalled, incipient spin, then on entry to the water was in a fully developed spin.
While those ancient engines would have coughed up a furball or three with indignation at being pushed to full throttle, that would most likely have saved the day once the wings were levelled.
The point where the accident happened was the use of aileron to start a turn, the wing dropped and more aileron was used in my opinion. Aileron drag then dug the hole and the aircraft and pilot fell in.
Safety Modeling http://patientsafetyed.duhs.duke.edu...ss_cheese.html
Last edited by X35B; 31st January 2017 at 18:38. Reason: link
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 8
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From: London
Although, he did comment that "the downwind myth has been around for a long time, probably as long as people have been flying".
I'd never heard of it before!
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 314
Likes: 99
From: Victoria Australia
Education and planning, demonstration flights
Oh gawd, here we go.
More approvals and training and qualifications and regulations? To land an amphibious aircraft on the water?
The ways in which pilots usually "stoof in" are well known. And those ways are usually "very basic" errors. Perhaps education, education and more education about the lessons that have been learned over and over would be a more effective solution.
More approvals and training and qualifications and regulations? To land an amphibious aircraft on the water?
The ways in which pilots usually "stoof in" are well known. And those ways are usually "very basic" errors. Perhaps education, education and more education about the lessons that have been learned over and over would be a more effective solution.
Irrespective of this particular occurrence, unfortunately in this country the general pattern in a shrinking GA scene is a lack of experience coupled with diminished practice of procedures that can mitigate the risk of such destructive accidents. It has been said that CASA doesn't believe that our GA industry is sufficiently mature for more devolved responsibility and hence our extraordinary nth degree prescriptive rules. This patronising and government knows best attitude is proving to be counter productive.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
From: Australia
Let me help....
It is certainly a hazard known to helicopter pilots, as the helicopter can come back out of translation, and require more power to maintain altitude, combined with affects upon control. Certainly if you're climbing out at Vy+, or in cruise speed, the affects of turning out of wind are probably negligible. It's the low speed maneuvering where the hazard presents itself.
It is certainly a hazard known to helicopter pilots, as the helicopter can come back out of translation, and require more power to maintain altitude, combined with affects upon control. Certainly if you're climbing out at Vy+, or in cruise speed, the affects of turning out of wind are probably negligible. It's the low speed maneuvering where the hazard presents itself.
The only danger here is the increase in groundspeed, so your reference point is now sliding past the window faster, which gives you a tendency to pull aft cyclic to slow down. You cause the drop through translation, not the wind.
There is still the same relative airflow over the rotor disc, upwind, downwind, crosswind, base.. the helicopter does not care.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,157
Likes: 97
From: Up The 116E, Stbd Turn at 32S...:-)
Hi Dora,.....
First, you open the window and stick your hand out to,
(a) Signal your intent of turning, and,
(b) To create more drag on the side you wish to turn into of course....
(Well, that's as good a response as I've read 'ere so far....Mind, you, I have absolutely no idea of how you do it in a pressurised aeroplane......)
First, you open the window and stick your hand out to,
(a) Signal your intent of turning, and,
(b) To create more drag on the side you wish to turn into of course....
(Well, that's as good a response as I've read 'ere so far....Mind, you, I have absolutely no idea of how you do it in a pressurised aeroplane......)
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 129
Likes: 1
From: Wannanup
This does not happen in real life. I have never EVER had a helicopter drop out of translational lift on me because of turning downwind, even in a slow orbit of a ground object.
The only danger here is the increase in groundspeed, so your reference point is now sliding past the window faster, which gives you a tendency to pull aft cyclic to slow down. You cause the drop through translation, not the wind.
There is still the same relative airflow over the rotor disc, upwind, downwind, crosswind, base.. the helicopter does not care.
The only danger here is the increase in groundspeed, so your reference point is now sliding past the window faster, which gives you a tendency to pull aft cyclic to slow down. You cause the drop through translation, not the wind.
There is still the same relative airflow over the rotor disc, upwind, downwind, crosswind, base.. the helicopter does not care.
