Another Jab engine failure...
Depends on what becomes disconnected. If the throttle cable disconnect from a Jabiru Bing carby, it would go full throttle. If the rotating part fell off the side of the carby, then all bets are off. I am not familiar with a 210 configuration myself. Rotaxes often have a spring which would be interesting to see in such an event because of the twin carbies as there is a spring on each one.
The unit that I use and have posted pictures of on here before, is terribly unreliable and inaccurate and I wouldn't use it for anything other than perhaps the G-meter. Not a good investment, but it wasn't a big one so it doesn't really hurt much anyway.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How can the engine be running perfectly and be completely faultless, if it "powered down to approximately zero thrust"?
I wish some people commenting wouldn't be so gleefully trying to trash the reputation of one of the few successful all Australian aircraft companies before they even know what caused this forced landing.
It is a credit to Jabiru that no one has ever been killed in one of their aircraft in a controlled forced landing. It should also be noted that most of the previous engine problems were due to owner / operators ignoring proper maintenance procedures.
It should also be noted that most of the previous engine problems were due to owner / operators ignoring proper maintenance procedures.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The comparison with Cessna 172s is interesting.
Click here for Comparison of Aircraft Manufacturers vs Number of Fatalities.
Click here for Comparison of Aircraft Manufacturers vs Number of Fatalities.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How does this relate to owners?
1 I just use the torque specifications as a rough guide.
2 I just tighten the through bolt nut till it goes loose and then back off 1/2 a turn.
3 Wot's a torque wrench?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The comparison with Cessna 172s is interesting.
Click here for Comparison of Aircraft Manufacturers vs Number of Fatalities.
Click here for Comparison of Aircraft Manufacturers vs Number of Fatalities.
number of aircraft currently registered? total number ever registered would be more relevant (how many 172's have come and gone over the years?), or prangs/1000hrs would be better yet.
what would those numbers look like?
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree flying hours at a minimum need to be included for such stats (total pax carried would also change numbers a lot).
What's wrong with Cessna 172 pilots? - Air Facts Journal
What's wrong with Cessna 172 pilots? - Air Facts Journal
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squawk, the Cessna 100 & 200 series have the throttle cable with friction lock, the pilots can check themselves. Fully back off the friction nut, push throttle in and pull it out. A small cone shaped thing should be on shaft (this clamps on to the shaft to obviously create friction) the cable should now be very free to move and it will not progress to full power - it will stay where it is left (or will vibrate to when running/flying). FYI.
Rutan, yes I too thought that possible (air vent) but would have hope to see on ground run and more a gradual power loss. Also a fully blocked vent (part fuel in tank) and ground run was part of the timing of power loss. I don't know that much about Jabiru other than they use different ignition to normal mags - certain partial failures of ignition system is an other possible cause. Again if muffler is baffled type and collapses is another reason for smooth rapid power loss.
Rutan, yes I too thought that possible (air vent) but would have hope to see on ground run and more a gradual power loss. Also a fully blocked vent (part fuel in tank) and ground run was part of the timing of power loss. I don't know that much about Jabiru other than they use different ignition to normal mags - certain partial failures of ignition system is an other possible cause. Again if muffler is baffled type and collapses is another reason for smooth rapid power loss.
"It is a credit to Jabiru that no one has ever been killed in one of their aircraft in a controlled forced landing."
What a load of utter rubbish. Spend 3 minutes on Google before making yourself look stupid.
What a load of utter rubbish. Spend 3 minutes on Google before making yourself look stupid.
Maybe true for Australia, but certainly not for outside of it.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"It is a credit to Jabiru that no one has ever been killed in one of their aircraft in a controlled forced landing."
What a load of utter rubbish. Spend 3 minutes on Google before making yourself look stupid.
What a load of utter rubbish. Spend 3 minutes on Google before making yourself look stupid.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why does it have to be a fatality in Australia to make it valid?
There was a recent one in South Africa where the prop was clearly not spinning.
There was a recent one in South Africa where the prop was clearly not spinning.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mcoates I just spent 1/2 an hour searching the web for fatal Jabiru accidents where engine failure was established as the cause. I found plenty of fatal accidents but not one where an engine fault was the cause. Perhaps, as I'm sure you don't think yourself stupid, you will be so kind as to direct me to a few of those specific sites that after proper investigation, attribute fatal Jabiru accidents to engine failure.
The extract below is worth reading for those too time poor to read the whole article. The whole article can be found at the address shown after the extract.
Extract
Full Article 'Indecent Haste'
Indecent haste | Pro Aviation
The extract below is worth reading for those too time poor to read the whole article. The whole article can be found at the address shown after the extract.
Extract
Michael Monck, President of the RAA, has already sent a separate document to CASA which Mr Stiff describes as “very forthright.” (See previous article, Get on with it!)
The most serious aspect of the entire CASA action was the distortion CASA applied to the raw information from RA-Aus, says Mr Stiff: “We vetted the whole RA-Aus list when we finally got hold of it. CASA actually asked RA-Aus for their numbers after they had drafted the instrument – they didn’t have anything until I asked RA-Aus and they sent them their unedited list of incidents which included everything and listed 40 engine failures, so that’s where CASA’s magic 40 figure came from.
“Jabiru had addressed most of the identified problems over three years ago. I believe CASA has been negligent because they never consulted with us before they introduced the consultation draft, and they pulled the rug out from under us while we were on the plane on the way down. They couldn’t wait another day to talk about the issue, which really tells you what the intent was; the intent was obviously to damage us to the point where we couldn’t survive.
“When we finally worked that out with RA-Aus we spent a whole weekend going through the 40 events, comparing it with our list of failures, and working out which were just maintenance items like leaking fuel pumps, or simply running out of fuel, which were all on the CASA list. When we’d tidied it up we actually added some to the CASA list and when that was sorted out there were 12 actual in-flight engine failures which led to genuine forced landings. But that was in 93,000 flights, and 43,000 flying hours. And it was mainly flying schools because Jabirus are such popular training aircraft. We already had corrective measures in place for almost all of those 12, and had implemented them since 2011.”
In earlier discussions, Jabiru had offered CASA information from a detailed survey of light sport aircraft safety in the United States, conducted by Aviation Consumer magazine, which placed Jabiru’s safety record in the top three of over a dozen types along with Cessna 152 and Cessna Skycatcher in three categories:
• Overall accident rate per 100,000 hours of flight (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152);
• Fatal accident rate (Jabiru’s score was zero in USA); and
• Accidents per hundred aeroplanes registered (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152 and Skycatcher.
“Of a claimed 40 Jabiru ‘engine failures’, the actual number of genuine failures is only 12 out of over 1500 aircraft. And there has not been a single fatality, and very few injuries.”
“Jabiru has settled CASAs concerns. We are looking forward to Mr. Higgins from CASA coming to Bundaberg as he has said, to see these outcomes. For example, Jabiru has not had a recorded through-bolt failure in any engine produced since 2011.
“The evidence available to Jabiru shows there have been no deaths in Jabiru aircraft arising from engine stoppage. That is the case internationally. Between January 2013 and November 2014 there have been a number of deaths in light sport aircraft in Australia in other aircraft than Jabiru. CASA ought to be addressing that matter.
“CASA should also be looking elsewhere for more serious air safety issues in light sport aviation. If 19 deaths did occur and none was in Jabiru aircraft, then CASA ought to be attending to those issues, and not attacking this company without notice.
“Turning to the substance of the response demanded by the CASA, the issues of Jabiru engine operation to which it relates have effectively been resolved. There was no need for the world-wide denigration of Jabiru.
The most serious aspect of the entire CASA action was the distortion CASA applied to the raw information from RA-Aus, says Mr Stiff: “We vetted the whole RA-Aus list when we finally got hold of it. CASA actually asked RA-Aus for their numbers after they had drafted the instrument – they didn’t have anything until I asked RA-Aus and they sent them their unedited list of incidents which included everything and listed 40 engine failures, so that’s where CASA’s magic 40 figure came from.
“Jabiru had addressed most of the identified problems over three years ago. I believe CASA has been negligent because they never consulted with us before they introduced the consultation draft, and they pulled the rug out from under us while we were on the plane on the way down. They couldn’t wait another day to talk about the issue, which really tells you what the intent was; the intent was obviously to damage us to the point where we couldn’t survive.
“When we finally worked that out with RA-Aus we spent a whole weekend going through the 40 events, comparing it with our list of failures, and working out which were just maintenance items like leaking fuel pumps, or simply running out of fuel, which were all on the CASA list. When we’d tidied it up we actually added some to the CASA list and when that was sorted out there were 12 actual in-flight engine failures which led to genuine forced landings. But that was in 93,000 flights, and 43,000 flying hours. And it was mainly flying schools because Jabirus are such popular training aircraft. We already had corrective measures in place for almost all of those 12, and had implemented them since 2011.”
In earlier discussions, Jabiru had offered CASA information from a detailed survey of light sport aircraft safety in the United States, conducted by Aviation Consumer magazine, which placed Jabiru’s safety record in the top three of over a dozen types along with Cessna 152 and Cessna Skycatcher in three categories:
• Overall accident rate per 100,000 hours of flight (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152);
• Fatal accident rate (Jabiru’s score was zero in USA); and
• Accidents per hundred aeroplanes registered (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152 and Skycatcher.
“Of a claimed 40 Jabiru ‘engine failures’, the actual number of genuine failures is only 12 out of over 1500 aircraft. And there has not been a single fatality, and very few injuries.”
“Jabiru has settled CASAs concerns. We are looking forward to Mr. Higgins from CASA coming to Bundaberg as he has said, to see these outcomes. For example, Jabiru has not had a recorded through-bolt failure in any engine produced since 2011.
“The evidence available to Jabiru shows there have been no deaths in Jabiru aircraft arising from engine stoppage. That is the case internationally. Between January 2013 and November 2014 there have been a number of deaths in light sport aircraft in Australia in other aircraft than Jabiru. CASA ought to be addressing that matter.
“CASA should also be looking elsewhere for more serious air safety issues in light sport aviation. If 19 deaths did occur and none was in Jabiru aircraft, then CASA ought to be attending to those issues, and not attacking this company without notice.
“Turning to the substance of the response demanded by the CASA, the issues of Jabiru engine operation to which it relates have effectively been resolved. There was no need for the world-wide denigration of Jabiru.
Indecent haste | Pro Aviation
These took me 30 seconds to find...
http://m.ewn.co.za/2016/05/12/1-man-...sh-in-Pretoria
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2012/0...plane.html?m=1
http://m.ewn.co.za/2016/05/12/1-man-...sh-in-Pretoria
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2012/0...plane.html?m=1
Where do those reports say there was a defect in the engine, as opposed to - say - the owner not having bolted the propeller on properly or having run out of fuel?
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These took me 30 seconds to find...
First one does not identify the aircraft type (though it looks like a Jab) and there is absolutely no information on the cause of the accident. Did it stall on short final with engine at idle? If you hang Jabiru with such miniscule information then I hope you are never on any jury trying me.
The second one is not even a Jabiru for gawd's sake. The discussion is about how survivable Jabs are even when they lose an engine. If you still want to trash Jab you need to know if the non standard prop extension bolts were torqued correctly and checked. Was the torque wrench calibrated recently (ever)? People damming Jabiru on such flimsy evidence would scream blue murder if it happened to them.