Putting my aircraft on-line
"One last point, ever wonder why car rental companies turn over their cars at about the 15 month or 40,000km mark?"
I reckon that's because they want the vehicles to be available 24/7. Taking the vehicle out of service for an oil change would cost them money.
I reckon that's because they want the vehicles to be available 24/7. Taking the vehicle out of service for an oil change would cost them money.
It's so they can get rid of them while they still have a low enough mileage to be able to get a decent price. Which, from my experience in the hire car industry, will be more than they paid for the thing, plus 40G k's of income being thrashed by renters!
Did the OP have a written agreement with the school, if so why is he complaining about something he has agreed to? if not, then he has no leg to stand on.
In my early days I cross hired aircraft from private owners and clubs because I had to; never again, the attitude of people like the OP is the main reason why. I had a 30 day termination clause in the agreement which I would use if they started coming in and throwing their weight around or thinking they could talk down to my staff. They needed me more than I needed them.
Did the OP have a written agreement with the school, if so why is he complaining about something he has agreed to? if not, then he has no leg to stand on.
In my early days I cross hired aircraft from private owners and clubs because I had to; never again, the attitude of people like the OP is the main reason why. I had a 30 day termination clause in the agreement which I would use if they started coming in and throwing their weight around or thinking they could talk down to my staff. They needed me more than I needed them.
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How about we pay $150/$160 per hr.
Location Groote Eylandt
Ops Charter and skydive.
Naturally all ferries and maintenance costs are yours, we pay fuel, oil and pilot (not on ferries).
Location Groote Eylandt
Ops Charter and skydive.
Naturally all ferries and maintenance costs are yours, we pay fuel, oil and pilot (not on ferries).
Having owned aircraft since 1974, anyone who thinks they are going to make money from an aircraft on line be it a Chipmunk or a Citation Jet is deluding themselves (I've owned both)
Similarly with overheads charged out properly by the flying school sub leasing an aircraft is not a winning formula.
It is simply supply and demand.
Private owners struggle to get utilisation, where's flying schools have a ready market thru their students, be it limited.
If you need to get hours to afford the aircraft youly probably better off not owning. If you are using it as a tax reduction vehicle then so long as the rate is not ridiculously low then just accept that the school needs to make money, after all you are both "in business" and you agreed the rate by mutual consent???
As for getting upset at what they charge, that is their business NOT YOURS
Similarly with overheads charged out properly by the flying school sub leasing an aircraft is not a winning formula.
It is simply supply and demand.
Private owners struggle to get utilisation, where's flying schools have a ready market thru their students, be it limited.
If you need to get hours to afford the aircraft youly probably better off not owning. If you are using it as a tax reduction vehicle then so long as the rate is not ridiculously low then just accept that the school needs to make money, after all you are both "in business" and you agreed the rate by mutual consent???
As for getting upset at what they charge, that is their business NOT YOURS
Clearedtorenter , in an ideal world, yes. But it's amazing how quickly (especially with clubs) a mutually beneficial negotiated arrangement becomes something they try to squeeze more and more from, justifying it by making out you are the greedy one, though in their lines of work they would never accept the flimsy margins we have to work on. I always stuck to agreements to the letter but the owners would always try to shift the goalposts AFTER signing to benefit them more. That was when the 30 day clause was invoked. Stick to the agreement, negotiate a new one or F off. Many of them were far more trouble and time consuming than they or their aircraft were worth.
Last edited by Clare Prop; 6th Sep 2016 at 09:33.
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There's more to it than that.
Planes have a high fixed cost (insurance, hangarage, maintenance etc) to to cover these fixed costs you really need to put at least 100 hours a year to get the fixed costs per hour down.
I think the way to do it is to find an operation that you can trust to look after your plane and work it to get over 100 hours a year.
I've also know LAMEs who fixed up damaged planes, that would be difficult to sell, and put them online at flying schools where the hirers don't know or care about the accident history.
LAMEs can do the maintenance themselves, sign off MRs and usually have a pilot of salvaged spares sitting around for their own planes. They treat these planes the same as you would for a property investment - buy the investment and wait for the yield to come streaming thru.
Planes have a high fixed cost (insurance, hangarage, maintenance etc) to to cover these fixed costs you really need to put at least 100 hours a year to get the fixed costs per hour down.
I think the way to do it is to find an operation that you can trust to look after your plane and work it to get over 100 hours a year.
I've also know LAMEs who fixed up damaged planes, that would be difficult to sell, and put them online at flying schools where the hirers don't know or care about the accident history.
LAMEs can do the maintenance themselves, sign off MRs and usually have a pilot of salvaged spares sitting around for their own planes. They treat these planes the same as you would for a property investment - buy the investment and wait for the yield to come streaming thru.
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Twas interesting to see those who care about other people's property and those that don't, you wouldn't have picked 'em until you saw it.
Believe it or not, my favourite PA-28 at the old meat works was a private cross hire. It had all the hall marks of a privately owned plane - sheep skin seat covers, wheel fairings, some extra electronic kit - you could tell it was loved by someone else outside that meat factory.
Last I saw of it while at the above mentioned school was it went offline with fuel tanks leaking and the owner unable to repair it.
I saw it again 20 years later and it is now owned by the above mentioned school but the only character it has left are the memories it evokes from its rego.
Believe it or not, my favourite PA-28 at the old meat works was a private cross hire. It had all the hall marks of a privately owned plane - sheep skin seat covers, wheel fairings, some extra electronic kit - you could tell it was loved by someone else outside that meat factory.
Last I saw of it while at the above mentioned school was it went offline with fuel tanks leaking and the owner unable to repair it.
I saw it again 20 years later and it is now owned by the above mentioned school but the only character it has left are the memories it evokes from its rego.
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Trick is to find a place that will respect your plane, which comes down to the people involved.
If a C182 etc was put online for mainly cross-country nav exercises it would not be a worry.
I'd be too stressed to leave something like a Seminole online for circuit and asymmetric training.
It would be a brave person who left a Pitts online for training unless they were always standing around with a stick to whack ham-fisted knuckles.
If a C182 etc was put online for mainly cross-country nav exercises it would not be a worry.
I'd be too stressed to leave something like a Seminole online for circuit and asymmetric training.
It would be a brave person who left a Pitts online for training unless they were always standing around with a stick to whack ham-fisted knuckles.
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You can justify anything if you try hard enough but, in my opinion, you would be hard pressed to financially justify a plane on 100 hours per annum.
You would be better off renting varying aircraft types as the need arises and putting the capital somewhere else.
No sleepless nights, no unscheduled maint problems ( the worst), no maintenance sharks and, no SIDS. Choose a different type for each flight.
You would be better off renting varying aircraft types as the need arises and putting the capital somewhere else.
No sleepless nights, no unscheduled maint problems ( the worst), no maintenance sharks and, no SIDS. Choose a different type for each flight.
You can justify anything if you try hard enough but, in my opinion, you would be hard pressed to financially justify a plane on 100 hours per annum.
You would be better off renting varying aircraft types as the need arises and putting the capital somewhere else.
You would be better off renting varying aircraft types as the need arises and putting the capital somewhere else.
This one is more like a $80k one which changes equations somewhat.
100 hours a year on a budget 182 is not a bad return and dare I say significantly more return than you'll get in any bank right now.
I tell people that if they are considering buying rather than renting an aircraft for their own or business use they will need to do at least 250 hours per year to be better off than renting one.
One pair of gents who didn't believe me ended up working out that the aircraft they bought ended up, in real terms over five years, costing them around $8,000 an hour to fly. Each. Dry.
One pair of gents who didn't believe me ended up working out that the aircraft they bought ended up, in real terms over five years, costing them around $8,000 an hour to fly. Each. Dry.
I tell people that if they are considering buying rather than renting an aircraft for their own or business use they will need to do at least 250 hours per year to be better off than renting one.
One pair of gents who didn't believe me ended up working out that the aircraft they bought ended up, in real terms over five years, costing them around $8,000 an hour to fly. Each. Dry.
One pair of gents who didn't believe me ended up working out that the aircraft they bought ended up, in real terms over five years, costing them around $8,000 an hour to fly. Each. Dry.
For my aircraft point the break even point is around 55-60 hours including hangar, insurance and other costs.
If you're taking about a 172 or perhaps an older LSA, 250 hours at retail hire rates represents possibly more than the capital cost of the aircraft.
It's all about percentages and the capital outlay. You can't use a blanket 250 hour rule.
That's in my own experience after nearly 30 years of operating aircraft of my own and managing other people's aircraft on line. I do know a little bit about percentages and capital outlay, amazingly enough. I operate at a different level to "172s and older LSAs"
The opening post was about a 182 and not a Lear Jet....
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I am with Clare Prop and Dehav .
I have never been able to get anywhere near 100 or 55(?)hours.
250 hours much closer to the mark but, what do I ( Nearly 40 years in the industry)and the others know ?
If I did my own maint , didn't insure or fix anything that fell off, ran the engine/prop until out of hours , I could say that my minimum hours would be zero ( just the cost of fuel to fly).
Of course, I know that I would be fooling myself and was just eating into the value of the plane.
I have never been able to get anywhere near 100 or 55(?)hours.
250 hours much closer to the mark but, what do I ( Nearly 40 years in the industry)and the others know ?
If I did my own maint , didn't insure or fix anything that fell off, ran the engine/prop until out of hours , I could say that my minimum hours would be zero ( just the cost of fuel to fly).
Of course, I know that I would be fooling myself and was just eating into the value of the plane.
I don't know how 100 hours per annum cross hire would ever cover fixed and variable operating costs of an $80,000 C182, cross hired at $120 per hour.
The most conservative fixed annual costs include:
Debt Servicing (or depreciation) 5% x $80,000 = $4,000
Insurance est 2% x $80,000 = $1,600
Provision for repaint/refurb = $2,000
Those three annual fixed cost factors alone total $7,600 per annum which amortised over 100 hours per annum = $76.00 per hour.
Whilst it has been a number of years since I have been involved in operating cost analysis for commercially operated aircraft, I'm very sure you won't meet all the other C182 fixed and variable costs for the remaining $44 per hour.
The most conservative fixed annual costs include:
Debt Servicing (or depreciation) 5% x $80,000 = $4,000
Insurance est 2% x $80,000 = $1,600
Provision for repaint/refurb = $2,000
Those three annual fixed cost factors alone total $7,600 per annum which amortised over 100 hours per annum = $76.00 per hour.
Whilst it has been a number of years since I have been involved in operating cost analysis for commercially operated aircraft, I'm very sure you won't meet all the other C182 fixed and variable costs for the remaining $44 per hour.
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Lets guess a few costs on top of Torres.
Cessna 182 costing's.
Debt Servicing (or depreciation) 5% x $80,000 = $4,000
Insurance est 2% x $80,000 = $1,600
Provision for repaint/refurb = $2,000
Annual $4,000
Engine o/h 12 years $3,500
Prop O/H 6 years $500
COA 100.5 $500
Parking/hangarage $2,000
SIDS/Preventative $5,000
So far $23,100 ($231 p/h) not counting a G35S.
Lets call fuel $2 bucks a Lt, so $12,000 ($120 ph)
Cessna 182 costing's.
Debt Servicing (or depreciation) 5% x $80,000 = $4,000
Insurance est 2% x $80,000 = $1,600
Provision for repaint/refurb = $2,000
Annual $4,000
Engine o/h 12 years $3,500
Prop O/H 6 years $500
COA 100.5 $500
Parking/hangarage $2,000
SIDS/Preventative $5,000
So far $23,100 ($231 p/h) not counting a G35S.
Lets call fuel $2 bucks a Lt, so $12,000 ($120 ph)
Last edited by Band a Lot; 10th Sep 2016 at 05:50.
Add another $20 per hour for parking/hangarage and budget more like $10,000 per annum if doing preventative maintenance rather than just the minimum.
Are you charging parking / hangarage by VDO or Airswitch?
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Squark7700,
"I've never seen anyone base parking / hangarage on the aircraft's hourly usage.
Are you charging parking / hangarage by VDO or Airswitch?"
Is the new thing works great, it is time from touch down to time of take off.
It is $20 per hr min charge $100, all profits go back into airport improvements. I understand the next airports it will be implemented at are the ones with flying schools.
"I've never seen anyone base parking / hangarage on the aircraft's hourly usage.
Are you charging parking / hangarage by VDO or Airswitch?"
Is the new thing works great, it is time from touch down to time of take off.
It is $20 per hr min charge $100, all profits go back into airport improvements. I understand the next airports it will be implemented at are the ones with flying schools.